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2:55 pm CDT Kansas
You might know I'd forget "Pride"! Namaste'

2:30 pm CDT Kansas
In reading Deepak's words, Marianne Williamson, Ram Dass, Scott Peck, Wayne Dwyer, etc., something inside says "they know"! "What" is it, that says this? "Who" is it that knows this?
There are many names for "it"---our Higher Self, God Within, the Atman, Christ Consciousness, etc., etc..
We are dealing with our intellects at this point, learning how to "look" at what has happened to us, what is happening to us, at the "physical" level of awareness. Our society is pretty much locked into what is known as the "third" level of awareness, commonly referred to as the individual "ego" level, which so far is focused on the "material". Predominant at that level are greed, lust, envy, jealousy, etc. "Societal Programming". My $.02 Namaste'

Scott...thanks for helping me understand. Discovering and experiencing first-hand is surely better than reading or hearing about it and then trying to judge what is true. Sometimes, even first-hand isn't good enough! Otherwise we'd think the earth is flat and stationary! Next question: Does something have to be experienced to be known?

Chris' seeing the patrol car reminded me of all of the "Protected by --- Security" signs that I see more and more often popping up in my neighborhood. For some reason it saddens me - I can remember when the first thing you read coming up to a home was the welcome mat.

2:15 pm CDT Kansas
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance---that principle is contempt prior to investigation".----Herbert Spencer.

A man I admire very much for his powers of articulation is George Will (ABC), and I've tried to find a means to communicate with him, as well as Ted Koeppel, for the sole purpose of having them "investigate" (ha) what's going on here as well as elsewhere. I heard them making light of what is trans-spiring.
"You can not achieve "IT" by taking thought----but you can not seek it by not taking thought".--Zen saying! Thanks, everyone, for being here.
I wish they'd let us know before they do things, as my "attachment" to all of you sure showed last night. I'll need a "12 Step" group to break this I suppose. (joking!) Namaste'

12:15 pm PDT Washington
I just choose to have my workstation crash here at work, so that I could contemplate this lesson. I wonder how much of my confusion with this idea is due to language. Can I really choose for things to happen? I know that I can choose how I will act and what I will do, but it seems strange to my ego consciousness that I could choose to get a flat tire on the way home, or that I would choose to have my Aunt die this summer. I realize that from the perspective of the Ultimate, there is no difference between “me” and The Tao (for lack of a better word), and so from this perspective all things happen just as they are meant to, and thus in some sense “I” choose for these things to happen. For me the idea of “mu” comes to mind when trying to think about The Tao choosing anything. To me it seems like the whole concept of choice exists only within the ego and maya laden world of ordinary human existence. In this world I have difficulty with the idea that I choose to have my computer crash even though I know that it may have done it so that I could contemplate this lesson while reinstalling my operating system...

2:00 pm CDT Kansas
"Levels" of awareness! These are all within "Consciousness".
We "see" from these different levels, what is present at each level, dependant on our "attachments" at those levels. In meditation, we can "expand" (transcend), into the "ALL" of "IT" and encompass all levels of awareness. (the "Seer"). Namaste'

Re the "tyranny of the media" -- as a former journalist, my experience is that the media merely reflects society and its prevailing attitudes. (And the thought of Dan Rather speaking in reverent tones of Deepak is interesting, but somehow "disconcerting" to be that mainstream! Interesting reaction on my part...)

Bill - Excellent point.. Thank you.. that is a very healthy way to view the events your life.

I attract to me those things that occur in my life... Wonderful.

Peace!

Bill- great clarification on the impact of the language we "choose" to use- I like your viewpoint and agree it is empowering- you said it better than I.

re: victim - I choose to take the point of view: I attract to me that which occurs. It is a point of view that works. It is not necessarily THE TRUTH. It is a faith based position. It is for use by me, on me, for me. Within the position, I occupy the empowered position in all events. This moves me completely out of victim and blame consciousness. Yes, it's scarry sometimes to ponder those things that I could potentially attact to me. And, in the pondering I succomb to victimhood. So, I would say that "choosing" everthing that occurs is not an empowering point of view. "Attracting" creates the space in my thoughts that allows me to choose how I will respond. pax.

Kitty- I agree with you 100%. And I'm glad you brought up the subject of not blaming. If we feel the need to blame (anyone, ourselves included) are we not then judging the situation at hand? Thank-you for the reminders! Prof. Osled- You're right! I did choose for you to write and say "that's ridiculous"- I had not laughed nearly enough yet today! Thank-you. Scott- I agree with you- it can seem frightening to fully internaliize this belief ( I often think it will be challlenged for me many times in my life)- but again, are we reluctant to accept responsibility for things that we judge to be "bad" things? (ie: what horrible thing might that say about me if I believe I attracted this "bad" event?) If we judge nothing, will this be an easier belief to accept? (Scott just so you know- the reason I hadn't laughed nearly enough yet today is that I've been judging myself all morning for something- all the while judging myself for wasting time judging myself....:) )...

I tried to post this yesterday but Randomhouse must have been in the process of reprogramming so that the archive would work. Great Idea! Wow! Great dynamic discussion today! Thanks to all. It's hard get get any work done some days, too interesting here. So yesterday on NPR was a story about brain research and I noticed what reverence and awe the reporter spoke with towards the subject. This is the tyrany of the media in my view. I mean that there is no question that the media as a whole is awed by the physical sciences. Contrast that to the whole huge level of disrespect for "Hilary's psychic advisor" Jean Huston. Have you ever heard Jean speak? Fabulous! Anyway, collective consciousness as described in Wayne Dyer and Deepak's tape "Living Without Limits" operates on the hundreth monkey theory. We have simply not arrived at the hundredth monkey. When Dan Rather reports on Deepak in an awed tone, we'll have a signal that we're getting closer. Bye for now. Pax.

I think the Law of Least Effort is relevant to the discussion about the "victim" mentality. So a few reminders from putting this law into effect: "Today I will accept people, situations, circumstances and events as they occur. I will know that this moment is as it should be, because the whole universe is as it should be" and "Having accepted things as they are, I will take responsibility for my situation and for all those events I see as problems. I know that taking responsibility means not blaming anyone or anything for my situation (and this includes myself)." I agree with Juli, that at least "at some level" we choose what happens to us. And I also think those who believe this really need to heed the advice to "not blame anyone, including myself."

Juli, that's ridiculous. (Naturally, you "chose" for me to write this message to you saying, "that's ridiculous", because you "needed" someone to write to you and say, "that's ridiculous." :)

Juli, that's ridiculous. (Naturally, you "chose" for me to write this message to you saying, "that's ridiculous", because you "needed" someone to write to you and say, "that's ridiculous." :)

Yes Chris, thank you again for clarifying my point! *smile*

The "victim" mentality is a response within the self that says "if only.... then I could....". Trying to find an outward cause for what is happening to a person.

Juli - at a fundamental level, I believe in what you say but it is difficult for me to fully internalize it, given the seemingly random nature of a great deal of violence in this society. If I am mugged, did I really choose that? Perhaps so, if I had something to learn from it. If I am gunned down on the street, it is difficult for me to accept that I willed that in some way as a learning experience. So, I agree with what you say, but it is a little too frightening for me...

Joel: My better response.... The availability of data as opposed to information is creating an intellectual laziness. Because of the 'net, TV, radio, newspaper, etc. etc. etc., it is just SOOOO easy to accept what is read, heard, etc. as the truth. I do not behave that way, but many in the world are, which is my concern. People are not challenging what they hear, the first step to giving away personal freedoms. I am encouraged that sound bite truths are turning off more and more people, but there is still a huge "mass" of people that will not or do not know how to challenge what is fed to them, and there lies my fear.

As to your last question, I think it has become too easy to succumb to the seduction of the overload of information as opposed to "waking up" and taking charge of your life.

I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say. I am not blaming the flow of information for the state of the world, I am merely trying to point out that people may be too ready to believe what is said as opposed to embarking on a path of discovery. But, as I am fond of saying, "That is their path to follow, I will continue to follow mine."

Chris- I disagree. I believe we do choose what happens to us-always. I agree with you that we ultimately choose our reactions to circumstances and events. But I believe we are the creators of those events and circumstances. In the face of things such as violent crime, that is sometimes a hard concept to swallow. But aren't we all attracting to ourselves exactly what we need on our journey to our Self? I'd like to hear more on this. (ps- your web page is really terrific- I've checked it out a few times). Peace.

I hope nobody minds a little selfish plug on my part, but I’d like to again welcome everyone to visit my webpage. If you haven’t visited in a while, there have been some major additions. If anyone has a favorite poem or quote that they would like to share, I would love to put it on my webpage. Again, I welcome everyone’s feedback and suggestions as they have been inspiring for me! :-)

I got to thinking about the whole idea of being a “victim” last night as I watched a police patrol car drive through my neighborhood. Am I in a victim cycle because I could not hope to single handily take one every criminal and so must rely on the police to protect me from the criminal element in my town? In this example, I must yield to my government to protect my interests. I don’t think that by yielding some of my personal responsibility to society that I am being irresponsible or in a victim cycle. I think it is important to realize that we can all be “victims” of violence, hate, injustice etc. There are times when things happen to us which, like it or not, we have no control over. We can’t always choose what happens to us, but ultimately we can choose how to react to these things. This is what I think Scott meant about victim mentality, not that we can always control our environment but with training, we can control our reactions to those things.

Excellent Point Joel!! I did blame "outside", didn't I?

Thanks for calling me on it... A better response will come later....

Scott...I'm not trying to start a debate or anything (I truly enjoy hearing what you have to say), but your posts yesterday (which may be lost in cyberspace) left me confused. I wonder if you could clarify so I can better understand.

You said "way too many of us are caught in the victim cycle, looking to the outside for the causes of our ills...society, the economy, the press...". Then in your next post you seem to blame "our sound-bite culture" for "doing damage to our combined consciousness, education system and ability to critically think".

Are these conflicting? Maybe I'm missing the point altogether, or maybe it's just a matter of which came first (chicken or egg) - is our culture inflicting damage to our consciousness or is our consciousness (lack of) inviting the negative influence? Alot of people are turned off by, or not influenced by those sound byte political adds - is this a sign of higher consciousness?

Hi everyone. I think we had a little problem with archiving the material from Sept.9 to Sept 17. We're looking into it now. Hopefully, it's just in programming limbo. I'll let you know as soon as I find out.

As I have experienced life I have learned that"you don't get mad ,you get smart,and you use it,and try to move ahead,the more you refrain from displaying your anger,the better your chance of success." Peace be with you.

At the risk of repeating an answer hidden in Monday and Tuesday. Emotions need to be lived and experienced. You may not like the emotional response you have to something but that is your problem to deal with after the event. Surpressing the emotion will ensure its returns. Experiencing the emotion and acknowledging your responsibility in having that emotion allows the possibility of transformation of the emotion. Alternatively use the emotion in a positive fashion.

Where did Monday and Tuesday go?

Life is like baseball, it's a team game played by individuals.

Thank the heavens that life is filled with many wonders. Peace and joy to all.

Thank the heavens that life is filled with many wonders. Peace and joy to all.

Thank the heavens that life is filled with many wonders. Peace and joy to all.

Well someone had to be the first! Where's it all gone? I guess....."If the doors of perception were cleansed Everything would appear..... as it is, infinite." (Blake) Here's to a new stream of infinite wisdom. Peace to all. Pauline H (from New Zealand)

2:15 pm CDT Kansas
Try telling the "powers that be" that "CONSCIOUSNESS" is behind DNA!

What fantastic stuff! Prof. Osled, Katrina, right on, and Chris and Scott likewise. Good to see you Melinda.
I agree that we can learn "methods" to transcend the suffering (all of it), but never-the-less, we are incarnated, and must "operate" in this physical world. That was what my reference to "going to the Himalayas to be one with Spirit" sometime back. We chose this time and place, and as I've heard before somewhere, the path we're on is both a blessing----and a curse, in our "humanness".

There's a chinese saying---"May you be born at an interesting time"! Well---here we are! Namaste'

Did the egg made the chicken or the chicken the egg? That is the most important question when dealing with social/political questions, because it leads nowhere. The world reality is a reflexion of my state of mind. I can be critical, judgmental, whatever... - and there are some very hot subjects, some previously mentionned - tailored to trigger reactions. It will give me opportunities to take a stand for myself concerning issues concerning myself, even if disguised into world affairs. But one thing is clear : if I am so upset about the american self-righteousness for instance, it is just because I am having this same attitude towards myself and ... the USA. If I don’t possess this attitude, I will not even see it outside. So talking about the degeneration of collective attitudes is meaningless. Is am the egg, the chicken and everything else.

I agree with Scott to the most part. I believe thet patience in this society is being selectively eliminated. With the help of technology our expectations about everything in life has become instant gratification. We want instant intimacy, instant coffee, instant breakfast, instant knowledge, instant wisdom, instant wealth, instant health etc. etc. The important things in life will always take time. Intimate relationships take years to develop, but with the pressures of the media and our general lack of patience we want strong, stable, healthy relationships NOW! In business, we would rather throw money at fundamental human relationship problems in hopes of instant gratification instead of investing in the time it takes to develop loyal customers, loyal employees and loyal business partners. We would rather spend thousands of dollars for a surgery and drugs to solve health problems that would not have been problems if we took the time to take better care of ourselves by eating right, living right, and exercising. Wisdom simply can not be rushed, by definition it is something that takes the better part of a life time to attain. Everything in nature works at it’s own pace. We are creating insanity by trying to force the pace of life to meet our 30 second sound bite, MTV expectations.

I think that spending time in nature, finding a good book and reading in a quiet and relaxed room, studying, meditating, seeking a more natural pace in life will do wonders for our sanity as well as our ability to become critically thinking and responsible individuals. I don’t know how to solve the ills of society, but at least I can resist those ills within myself.

Peggy, just a word of encouragement. Saved from my first suicide attempt by my dog (strange story), I met the psychiatrist that was to change my life while in the hospital. Because of my attempt, I was put on Prozac immediately (small doses that gradually increased)while receiving therapy twice a week for a time, then once a week. I remained on the drug and weekly therapy for four years before he began to slowly decrease my dosage. He watched me like a hawk during this period but eventually, I was completely off the drug. After two more years of therapy, I knew I was going to be okay and "went solo." I still get depressed from time to time but I never reach the depths I did before treatment. My self-directed program of studying Deepak's books has given me an increasing ability to avoid depression altogether. From my own experience, I believe you're on the perfect path to your own freedom. Hang in there, you're doing great!

Scott: The words "uninformed masses" and "sound bite" in your last communique struck a chord in my memory banks with regards to a short poem entitled: STAMPEDE... The Stampede of the Herd, by Media the Gun, Technology the Siren, The Armageddon Run. The Calling of His People, By Media the Ghost, Technology the Son, The New Jeruselem Post. Don't get too upset about the masses, as some carpenter said a long time ago, "the Way is narrow and few be that find it."

Running late for a meeting.... hmph...

One last comment.... The "sound bite" culture of the United States is doing damage to our combined consciousness and to the education system and ability for people to critically think...

If you look at the current presidential election you have a classic example. The "facts" spit out in 30 second commercial spots rarely are facts, yet people take them as if they were. We are running huge risks of an uniformed mass of humanity electing our leaders because people are not taking the time to educate themselves on the issues, the facts, etc. So, we believe what we are told when it fits our preconceived vision of the world. Danger, Danger Will Robinson!! We are in trouble in this country, grade inflation, diminished academic expectations, "sound bite" facts, EEK! Sorry, I'm beginning to get down about this. If anyone had noticed, it is my hot button. I am VERY concerned about the lack of critical evaluative skills in the population at large and what type of leaders that will elect.

Already we are giving up many of our guaranteed freedoms for the promise of a "better life". Censorship, Book Bannings, TV Ratings, Seatbelt Laws, Smoking Regulated as a Drug, all symptoms of "HELP ME", I can't control my own life so I need the government to do it for me.....

Deep Sigh... Sorry about the length and the tone, I just got going, y'know?

Peace.

Hmph! - trying again....

The Danger of Labels
Personal Responsibility

7:45 PDT (California)...

Terry! Fabulous! Dr. Osled, Fabulous!

Yes, the world is manifesting these syptoms in our physical beings. We as a society (earth) have lost sight of a great number of things in our quest for the "Scientific" explanation of everything. Also, way too many of us our caught in the victim cycle, looking to the outside for the causes of our ills, society, the economy, the press, blah blah blah...

The path to a better tomorrow begins INSIDE. When we control inner space and take responsibility for our lives. This is missing in many of today's parents as they were never taught this as children themselves. They were trained, over many, many years to expect the world (parents, teachers, family) to just give them everything. To look OUTSIDE. What a wonderful world this would be if everyone took personal responsiblity for their lives. Nuff said. Again - two articles I have written on this:

Personal Responsibility

Peace!

Yes, Prof., body, mind, spirit seems to be the hierarchy. And sometimes that seems to be the order you need to treat symptoms to stay alive long enough to get to spirit. But I guess Dr. Chopra is saying we don't necessarily have to "wait;" that if we "treat" spirit, then body/mind will follow in recovery? And don't worry about a hard line -- I didn't realize that Dr. Chopra taught that diseases a baby is born with are symptoms, not causes. I'd just never read anything by him that said that. But it makes sense as a logical extension of what he's teaching -- if one reacts with compassion and not blame. Dr. Joe, others, are we on track here? Pax.

Katrina: (re: your post, Monday, 9/16/96) Not to take a hard line or anything, but "brain chemistry" or anything one is "born with" are symptons, not causes. Decline in the conciousness of generations is now manifesting as ADD, depression, drug abuse, inefficient brain chemistry, disease, etc... Our bodies are effects, not causes. Isn't this what Dr. Chopra teaches? If this is true, then the "research" is just pointing out more symtoms, not causes. Blame is not the answer, but resposiblity and enlightenment may be. To quote myself, "Responsibility is not shed by ignorance." If someone walks off a cliff, not knowing the laws of gravity, they're still going to break a leg or worse. We're all learning, whether we know it or not. My beef is, so many times, problems are left at the physical level as the absolute cause and then we try to chase real answers at that same level. The hierarchy's still body, mind, spirit, right?

All right let's try on a new 'label' for size....mmm... unbounded, timeless, wondrous, unconditional perfect love ...hiding in the heart... Transcend thought ...and there you'll find it. I'm thinking more along the lines that it is judgement that separates us from awareness of oneness. Judgement at a very primal level. Judgement where we objectify subjective experience. To become aware of this place in the mind where it begins is not easy. I thank God that I have two teenagers who have never needed those drugs - but my son did have very volatile expressions of anger which he gave in to when he lived at home. Now he lives away. And his rebellious creative individuality expresses itself by NEVER EVER brushing or combing his long shoulder legth hair. He calls it dread locks. They're dreadful alright!

11:00 pm CDT Kansas
Juli, believe me, I don't think anyone on this Forum took your comments as derogatory. We are talking about human, real life situations. Is Andre' still with us?
I suppose people are ready to get off this particular topic, ritalin, but I hope we all learned something. I know I did.
Spirit, soul, "consciousness", "levels of awareness", etc.; how are we going to get science and "the powers that be" to disseminate this knowledge, when empirical knowledge can't be substantiated?
Another aside: I wasn't aware that Marharishi and Dr. Chopra had once been close (?) or knew each other. I notice that Marharishi's organization has purchased some land here in Kansas to set up one of his centers. Interesting! Probably all for now. Namaste'

Terry, I hear you. Thank you, in return, for being so open. "May the long time sun shine upon you, all love surround you, and the pure light within you guide you all the way home."

Bill, Katrina, and Peggy- thank you so much for sharing your experiences. This has been an amazingly thoughtful and personal discussion. Dr. Joe- Your perspective was much appreciated too. I feel that it may sometimes be challenging to detect any sense of compassion in the wake of my intense desire for us all to experience our own healthy and joyful existence. I hope the expression of my viewpoint did not feel hurtful to anyone- that was certainly not my intent. My thanks to all of you for your heartfelt and candid contributions to this topic. Love to you all...

Thanks, Dr. Joe and Chris. If you're saying that the ADD or whatever won't manifest with as severe symptoms and consequences if we're emotionally strong, that makes sense. I was having trouble with Dr. Joe's assertion that "...We could prevent a lot of depression and ADD by creating (training) better parents..." because the PET scans and other research seems to show that the ADD brain chemistry is something one is born with. But with Dr. Joe's addendum, perhaps you're meaning that we could prevent alot of the crisis behaviors associated with ADD with better trained, more emotionally competent parents (and kids). Amen to that. And, yes, Chris, drugs shouldn't be looked on just as quick fixes but as a means to stabilizing so that we can move upward and onward. Pax.

9:00 pm CDT Kansas
Wow! I really want to thank everyone for ALL their contributions on the recent subject. In the post that started this, it mentioned that our whole society should be on Ritalin. Why?

"The pull of the world, the pull of the senses" in general, are the "root" of the problem. We, as adults, prior to getting on the spiritual path, weren't any better off. Confused, torn and pulled in a thousand different ways. Peggy, I really appreciate your candidness. Without a doubt in my mind, you'll be able to one day put the drugs aside. Primarily because you found this path, and you will understand more about "Consciousness", and how thoughts affect our inner "Peace".
This is why I brought it up, as at the same time as we are becoming free, and aware of the process, we can guide others in our realm of influence.
Catholics not believing in divorce, at least by my parents, they separated and my mother was left raising three boys and a girl, 8,6,4 and 2. To help her (I was a handful) she soon sought medical help for sleeping. You can guess the rest of the story. I was 25 when she commited suicide as the result of many years of usage. As for my father, he drank. When I was 10 I passed through what was known then as "skid row" on my way to visit my grandparents. I couldn't help noticing the condition of people there, and so I asked my dad what was going on. He informed me at the time (10), that those people were alcoholics---they drank all the time. That "thought", idea, image, planted in my head at that time, almost killed me, as for years loved ones, people along the way, tried to get through to me about my drinking---that I had a problem. I couldn't be an alcoholic, because my conditions weren't like the people I saw (image in my head) on skid row.
What are we allowing ourselves to be "programmed" with today? Our children and grandchildren? For the "powers that be" behind TV, movies, magazines, the Web etc., to say that what they're putting out doesn't have an affect on our "National Consciousness" is as crazy (lie) as saying tobacco isn't addictive.
To bring this to a close, there's no doubt in my mind that a recent study suggested that the constant barrage of quick, short, loud, images battering us from the tube, and the many distractions (pulls) in the world are causing this problem. Thanks again everyone! Sorry to take up so much space. Namaste'

Thanks Dr. Hayes. I agree 100% with your statement that people need to become more emotionally competent. It seems that when we (as a society) feel overwhelmed with life we look for quick fixes including drugs (both recreational and prescription). It is a kind of crisis management of life. If we can take the time in the beginning to nurture and love, I believe that most of these crisis can be averted before they seem overwhelming. The use of drugs can be life saving, and can dramatically improve the quality of one’s life if there are major chemical imbalances within the body. There will always be problems in life, but, using Dr. Hayes’ analogy, if we can all learn to swim, it doesn’t mater how deep the water is, we will be OK.

As I was exploring the www I fell into a site that is all about brain chemistry. Infact, it is called "Introduction to Brain Chemistry." For any one who is interested, here is the address: aloha.net/~jms/brainuse.html. I found some interesting info. Namaste

On rereading my post I see there is a part that people may misinterpret as blaming parents for ADD. That is not intended. The point is that none of us parents gets any good training for the job and we worry that if a child is having difficulty we MAY be to blame so we tend to ignore as long as we can and the problem becomes worse or at least more deeply entrenched. As a parent I have tremendous compassion for the task that all parents take on and I feel for all the souls who've struggled with kids with special needs without knowing that there are ways to help when things are recognized early. Also I apologize for the length of the previous post.

Well, again you have chosen a topic I could go on all day about! Labels and Drugs; how do we use both effectively. I think that should be the question because I think this whole thing is about freedom and responsibility and not about shoulds or should nots. I don't think we can start off labeling Ritalin as evil. Remember that therapy is about learning and when you have severe ADD or Depression your ability to learn in a classroom or from a therapist is greatly impaired. Drowning is a good analogy. Seeing someone drowning we must make some judgement and choose an action. Certainly we can say that people should know how to swim and you might feel that this is as good a time as any for the drowning person to learn, however a closer look at the situation and you might realize that the circumstances are not conducive to learning and the risk is too high. If you throw him a life preserver and pull him out then once he's calmed down you could discuss whether he cares to learn to swim. If you see a lot of people drowning you might conclude that everyone should get lessons early in life. The way that Deepak has put it is First Survive - then evolve. Remember the risk in depression includes suicide and the risk in ADD includes a very high rate of juvenile delinquincy (Sp?) and use of illegal drugs. Keep those risks in mind if you are going to judge parents or doctors (like me) who put kids on drugs like Ritalin. We could prevent a lot of depression and ADD by creating (training) better parents, but that means parents really looking at their own issues and that is a hard thing to convince parents, in general, to do until their child has a problem that requires a label. There is a stigma that makes people think that if they ignore emotional issues and problems they won't be noticed and there is still an idea that if "my parents" got by "winging it" as parents I should be able to do it also. I think that is why we are seeing a kind of cascade of emotional problems in successive generations. I think we have to avoid thinking like politicians looking for some result to blame as the cause and promising to throw money at it. The solution is really to become more emotionally competent as a society and that means everyone gets training in it in school and everyone gets parenting classes which stress dealing with emotions and especially with dealing with our own issues. Every child gets screened early on for signs of aggressiveness, inattention, impulsiveness and those parents get intense training and they kids get special classes geared to those problems. If we want not to use drugs we are going to have to go to the root of the problem and right now we have made a decision as a society to ignore these problems as long as we can, until we NEED labels and drugs. I better get off the soap box before it breaks!! I'd be happy to discuss this with interested parties by email.

Just a thought here on the use of ritalin. In my previous life I taught learning different (impaired) children for 8 years. These were the kid that the other teachers didn't want. For the younger ones (5-9) I found that coffee in the morning had the same affect as ritalin without the side affects. The parents were comfortable with this and so some of my kids started the morning off with a small amount of coffee - the amount varied with each child. Coffee does not work for children who are 12+, then it has the same affect as it does on adults. I also believe, if it something is working for you and your child, then stay with it, so this information is just an additional bit of info for parents who are still searching.Namaste

Kathy, I am aware that I also need to refrain from so much judgment. I haven't had the nerve to try it yet, but your words are encouraging....I was given the label "depressive" over thirty years ago. Believe me, the symptoms came long before the label. Each time I went through a bout of depression, I was hospitalized. I went through several rounds of electro shock therapy. That particular therapy got me over my depression but wiped out memories of my late teens and early twenties. I remember just the highlights and the low points. I saw myself as weak for not being able to face the demands of adult life like "normal" people. I thought that I had this great character flaw. Then I found out that a lot of depression is caused by body chemistry. It took another ten years or so before I was given prozac. This medication has saved me. It allows me to be who I am. As a more balanced person, I can begin to explore alternative ways of building good health. I am hoping that through an Ayurvedic lifestyle I can improve the condition of body, soul, and spirit--perhaps to the point that I will be able to function without medications. I do know that without prozac, I would have been unable to even have the desire to grow. Like medications, labels, when appropriate, can be a blessing and a gift. With that said, I must agree that both prozac and ritalin are over prescribed. I think counseling can be all that is needed for some. For others, balancing the body chemistry is the right way to go. Whichever path you choose, finding a good match with the counselor or doctor is important. Bless you all and please take this in the spirit in which it was intended. Peace to all of us...

To everyone in the Chopra forum:

On Sunday we had to perform a necessary upgrade to our server
which took several hours. We apologize for any postings that got lost in the ether during this time. Your patience and understanding is greatly appreciated. Liz

The message I posted yesterday that got lost was about an experience similar to Bill's in having a son diagnosed with ADD about two years ago (after thorough testing) and who has benefitted greatly ever since from Ritalin - both in terms of being able to focus/attend and gain impulse control. Terry, he/we found the diagnosis to be liberating, in that it provided answers to what had been going on - a frame of reference and treatment. We're concerned about the long-term affects of Ritalin, however, as there haven't been any long-term studies yet, and we're interested in learning about alternative treatments. So far, nothing has come to light that's shown to provide results anywhere near as good as Ritalin, though. There are positives that my son has with his ADD - the ability to live almost totally in the present moment, for example, forgetting about the past and not worrying about the future. We don't know what the answer is here, this is a continuing journey --- any ideas would be appreciated. Pax.

Terry, I have seen a considerable misuse of both Ritalin and Prozac type drugs also. You're right, kids get "labeled".The teacher dispenses it at school and the kids know who is on 'drugs'. Just recently a young boy aged 12, who I am close to, was having difficulty in school and also at home. I thought it was "normal" behavior as he had been the youngest child and then his parents adopted a bother and sister (2&4) followed by his mom getting pregnent and having another child, plus he was pre puberty age! Anyway, they took him to a psychiatrist, at the advice of the family doctor, and he put him on one of the prozac type drugs. (No counseling) When this didn't work, the mom called the Psychiatrist back and he put the boy on Ritalin (not testing). So now he was on both drugs with no counseling. Things went from bad to worse until all the drugs were discontinued and he went to a counselor and worked out his obvious problems. I agree with Bill, also, some children cannot function without Ritalin. We need to listen to our children and be careful about the selection of MD's and make sure proper testing is done. Chris, that was the biggest light show I had seen in years! Barbara, I enjoyed your words. Not judging is on my mind a lot and I am trying so hard not to classify people or anything as good or bad. "Today I shall judge nothing that occurs" is difficult because of past conditioning. I do find that I am getting very aware and when I do start to judge my body quickly picks up on it! Peace to all...

Hello all you wonderful people... Thanks to all you beautiful souls that gave me such wonderful feedback on my webpage. It has been inspiring!

I agree with Bill that the use of drugs must follow some middle ground. One thing that I don’t understand is why hospitals do not allow the use of many experimental drugs on the terminally ill. Why have such stringent FDA controls when these people have very little else to try and nothing more to loose? I’d like to hear Dr. Hayes perspective on this issue.

I have a step son who takes ritalin. I too was opposed to it at first. Now, after observing his ability to keep his attention on school work (even at a special private school with high teacher/student ratio) I believe that there is a need to be child specific when addressing the problem. I believe that drugs prevent complete experiential knowledge of life. AND, I know that without this drug, my son would be unable to even stay tuned in long enough to know what the assigned work might be. Without ritalin he can't even choose to clean his room and complete on it, with ritalin, he can keep focued on the task and complete - without reminders. There are some good books on ritalin and ADD. Before you entirely deride the issue, increase your knowledge. This is also true of drugs used for depression. A person close to me has been prescribed baby doses of one medication and was able to use it temorarily to keep from drowning in the experience. Another now takes FIVE different medications, all psychoactive! This seems to be irresponsible and malpractice by the Psychiatrist who has written the prescriptions. The question in all of this is degree!

Yea, I posted Sunday too but now it's gone! Grinding intellectual desire to be free of worldly cares? Please say more. I think I feel differently, however, I'm reluctant to speak until I know more.

S o much of what I read about spiritual matters adds up to a grinding intellectual desire to be free of worldly cares

10:45 am CDT Kansas
Katrina, I don't think anything got posted yesterday. I tried getting on through out the day and keep getting messages that the "server" was down. Namaste'

Sysop: All the postings from Sunday have disappeared from what I'm seeing here -- I know I posted something as did others. Were you down?

Terry- I DO have suggestions as to how to change the overuse of Ritalin and labeling in general- keep talking about it! Thanks for bringing it up, it's a subject I think (and talk)about frequently. I find feelings of anger and bewilderment in myself at the thought of drugging children as opposed to knowing them ( how I see it) but, I do believe so stongly that labeling is what so often creates this "victim state" that I also believe we have a lot of power to change that. Just by bringing it up you go a long way towards increasing awareness-that is always a beginning. As human beings we have a responsibility to all the spirits coming into this existence as human babies to teach them all we can about living in this world of form- let's continue to talk (to everyone we can) about our unlimited ability to direct our individual existence and well being. Maybe "the powers that be" will start to catch on and give children the respect they deserve as individuals and the real guidance that that individuality entitles them to. Even if they don't- someone is bound to hear us if we're loud enough!- if one person does, it's a place to begin. Namaste'

Dorothy? Are you there? Where did everybody go? Auntie Em? Anyone?

Cool and interesting web sites! http://www.onedream.com/ http://www.hendricks.com/ http://www.contextassociated.com

8:15 pm CDT Kansas
I went back and tried to find out who had written it, but couldn't find it. Anyway, sharing "coincidences" was the general topic going on, and the story the related to a poem some young people really liked---that had "grabbed" them.
I thought I'd throw something out for thought!
Young people are not that far "away" from their original condition; that "child within" condition. Dependant on their environment (functional, dysfunctional) societal programming doesn't really start becoming a permanent "ego" structure until they take on making decisions. Until a certain age, their pretty well "led". Which brings me to the concern I have concerning what is going on today. I bring this up only because it applies to the world we live in, and future generations.

I'll make a statement: "If you BELIEVE something is so, then it is"! (For you at least) ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) A report of the nursing staff's of our local school system reported that Ritalin (?) was administered on a daily basis to 44 High School students, 114 Middle School, and 343 Grade School students in the 1994-1995 school year, and cases were up this year.
When it comes down to it, our whole society should probably be on it, but my problem relates to the fact that these kids are being "labeled", the "thought" is planted in their heads, that they've got a problem. This I feel is going to carry over into adulthood,(even adolescence), only now they "graduate" to Prozac.
I've seen this to much lately. From that "labeling" the individual gives up taking control of their own emotional well being. You probably all understand what I'm talking about, as in our journey we will experience those "highs" and "lows"----mood swings----as we get into that "place" during meditation periods, and then "come down" (for lack of a better word), when we go about our day to day lives.
I guess what I'm trying to share is that we all have "thoughts", ideas, concepts, that we have allowed to be "planted" in our subconcscious minds (memory) that we "let go of" in reaching that place of peace within us, where no thoughts are going on.

I have no suggestions as to how to change it, as not enough is accepted by the powers that be (Science) when it comes to "Consciousness". I've said enough. Namaste'

Chris - what a great site. Thank you for showing me new places to explore.Namaste

I just love this forum! I must share with you all a most wonderful book I picked up the other day. It is called "The Eye Never Sleeps - Striking to the Heart of Zen" by Dennis Genpo Merzel. Published by Shambhala. In fact their web site at www.shambala.com was a real treat for me. Hope some of you enjoy it as well... In the oneness.... Angela

Thanks so much to all of you who have shared your thoughts about death of a parent or close relative with me. What a neat welcome to this forum! Thanks especially to Peggy for some very practical advice beautifully expressed. I will digest all this and talk to you all again later. Peace be with you all. P PS: I have visited Chris's Web page and it is great. Thoroughly recommended.

9:30 pm CDT "The Yellow Brick Road"
Pauline, I had the most fantastic experiences with my 96 year old Grandmother for a few years prior to her passing. One of the things I've mentioned before, and that is at the age of 92, she introduces me to her "Guru", which blew my mind in that she was very close to the local Catholic Bishop, and had been raised in Catholicism. I found that for her, she wasn't really interested in much about what other people had to share on the subject, like Elisabeth Ross, Tibetan Book of the Dead, etc. In fact everyone "senior" to me had already passed away, so I really focused on what she had to say.
I found that from about her 70's on, she'd been ready to go. The process of "letting go" of a lot of "if only's and what if's" had long taken place, and in there place was a wealth of beauty and wisdom. I especially enjoyed listening to how she'd do it differently next time. She was really hep on our mobility, and all the "happenings", and how we younger ones took so much for granted, without much thought for outcomes or consequences.
I guess what I'm trying to say is to just "be", with your Mother. Someone else has said it, answer questions, discuss things she wants to talk about. It's painful, as we are faced with our own feelings of loss, and memories of the past that were less than perfect (in our minds), that she has probably forgotten. With those, I didn't bring up. It's her time.
I've also noticed, from being with people close to me and present during their last days that the "Universe" (God) seems to provide a "shift" in Consciousness. Although to us there is much pain, they are not aware of it. Dr. Bernie Siegel is a cancer specialist, and has written a couple of books about it, with attention to the spiritual aspects of the dying process. I think it was Aldous Huxley's wife who was dying that told her "My Darling, my darling, let go, let go--go into the Light"! (Tibetan Book of the Dead). Namaste'

Ditto to Colette's message- I, too, love Chris' site. Thanks Chris!

I love Chris Vedeler's site and have earmarked it for frequent perusal. Thanks Chris.

Peggy thank you so much for your welcome back. It meant so much to me to see it as soon as I entered the forum. What Juli wrote to you said, more elegantly than I ever could, exactly the way I feel when I read your gifts to us. Thank you Juli. Even your first try into this very intimidating world of cyberspace was so very special.

Barbara how can I find that wonderful article on breath from Suma Cheng Hai News. If I give you my fax number could you send it to me? I found it absolutely fascinating. Thank you for sharing it with all of us who are so far away from you and yet so close. Namaste

Doc Joe, could you please ask Random House for a way to preview and edit our comments before we send them for the world to see? Other sites have this capability. That would help me a lot.

Ravi, you are so right, meditation is truly a powerful tool as well as a blessing and a gift. My husband and I us TM. For the time being it is perfect for us. For those of you who want to try other alternative approaches, one is Benson’s book The Relaxation Response. This is a good introduction and guide. My business partner used it as his approach to meditating and is very pleased with the results. Namaste

Coming back to this forum after being away for a week is very healing for me. Pauline, I send my love to you and your mother. I don’t have any words of wisdom to offer. What I can do is tell you how I am feeling now and if anything feels right to you then please take it and shape it to meet your needs.

My husband and I just came back from his aunt's funeral. And we are still feeling the impact of his mother’s death 1 1/2 years ago. Just as they gave to us in their life, they gave to us in their death. I am still reeling from the gut knowledge of how fragile life is and how vulnerable we are to the laws of nature. With all of our brain power and fancy computers, we are still like the leaves on the trees - we bud, grow, fade and drop way. We can try to insulate ourselves from life, but there comes a time when we have to face that we too are a part of this cycle we call nature. Then the question becomes, how do we chose to live the time we have been given and how do we chose to accept the end of our present human existence. With all of the peoples’ help here, I hope to learn to live this life with compassion and kindness for all (even those who I have allowed to cause me pain), to walk with courage and to greet my certain future with the same peace and elegance as the leaves on the trees greet theirs. Namaste to you Pauline.

OOPS!! 3 and 2 are suppose to be quotation marks

This week I was reminded of the Law of Intention and Desire. I went back and read chapter 5 and realized that upon reading ³Applying the Law of Intention and Desire² I had not yet made my list. I divided my list into three, spiritual, emotional, and physical needs, and as I was listing my desires the thought came to me that if we are true to ourself in listing these desires, that these are the desires of God and these are the things He needs to experience this world through this body of His. It is the ego that keeps our needs in the lower realms, in judgement. Fulfilling our desires on the three levels we will maintain a balance. Have you made your list? *:o)

Money - Healing - Spirituality : ... It is not easy to start this post. All these opposite opinions and the one very diplomatic from Dr. Hayes. Did you realize that they had in any case one common point: the judgement of good or bad, exactly what we all should let behind, if we want to go further. Perhaps in our so money-rewarded time we are loosing track of something immensely important? Perhaps we are asking the question the wrong way? And I remembered a posting of Chris about Mu - unask the question. And by unasking the question Jesus came to my mind. He did not ask: Father I need some money to feed the hungry, he stated: I and my Father are one, and here there were the fishes, the bread, the wine. For him I suppose questions like being paid or not paid were completely irrelevant. He asked and manifested immediately. Is he different from us? He always said no. He expressed oneness or wholeness with creation to such a point that consequently he could only perform miracles, because they are natural in a state of wholeness with God. When they do not occur something has gone wrong. It requires great power and effort to continue the worship until divine love rises from within. So, really all our strenghts should be put into the practice to be able to love God, to develop it to it’s greatest intensity - and the rest will come. Whenever we question our value let us say that our worth is beyond perception, because it is beyond doubt. I love you all so much, let’s love and not judge.

Hey Chris...I thoroughly enjoyed your web page. Thanks for sharing. The links (Hawking, Taoism, Einstein) kept me on-line for hours! I want to share two Einstein quotes I found along the way.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

"The value of a man/woman resides in what he/she gives, and not in what he/she is capable of receiving."

Dear fellow seekers, Please! Please!! Taking a position on even a worthy cause detracts from the freedom that comes from soaring.

Enough about money.

Ask not what meditation is. Who gives it? Under what name? And what cost? This is politics. Like the stars, the streams, the mountains and the ubiquitous trees, meditation is. It is not to be talked about. Do it. Start in your own way. Soon you will make discoveries that will enlighten you. For when you are level A, you cannot imagine or verbalize or read about or think about what it is like at level B. Only you can discover it. So get on with it. Start right now with Om. You will make your own path, for if there are 6 billion people on this Earth, then there are 6 billion unique paths.

Forever free, look in on : http://www.yesic.com/rsadana/

What are we all doing? We are responding to the most fundamental need in us. It is to give expression to the artistic treasures waiting to be awakened. We have to get in touch with our Creativity consciousness, which takes us back to meditation. Once we see the light of pure creativity, our spirit will expand to cover the whole universe. May Om guide you to it. It is guiding me. With folded hands and my head bowed, Namaste to you all.

Greetings friends! Last night we in Western Washington State (Spokane area) were given quite a show from the skies! I have not seen lightening like that in 15 years. The whole sky was energized with nearly constant cloud to cloud lightening and with strikes less than a second or two apart. It was quite an awe inspiring show from Nature.

Ravi I truly enjoyed your last post. You are so right that one can not intellectualize or debate this type of thing. It must be done and experienced. Thank you for reminding us.

Welcome Pauline. Dealing with a dying loved one is an emotionally poignant process. My mother has been through it 3 times in the last few years with my Grandfather, Aunt and a close friend of hers. Sometimes the dying need to be freed to let go and just pass on. My Grandfather and my Aunt both fought their illness till the last hours. There came a time when my mother told them, that it was OK to go. They needed to know that dying does not equal failure, and by passing on with grace and dignity they are not letting us who remain in this realm down.

I would like to welcome everyone to visit my new fledgling web site. It has be a wonderful way to express a little bit of myself for all the world to see. Take a look, and let me know what you think. The address is: http://www.isomedia.com/homes/cvedeler/

Pauline, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your mother. I would second what Peggy has said. Two years ago my mother-in-law, who had also been ill most of her life, was diagnosed with lung cancer at age 74 and died within six months. Because she was 2,000 miles away, we weren't able to spend that much time with her physically, but my husband had many long phone calls with her where they laughed and cried over old times and basically talked about what she wanted to talk about - that was very therapeutic for them both during that difficult time.

To Juli: The kindness of your post will long be remembered. What you admire in me you must see in yourself. Thank goodness, we don't have to be perfect! It is easier here on the forum, I think, to be at our best. To me, this is the place where we are most real. We acknowledge each other's spirit and are less reluctant to cover up the truth about ourselves. It is in the world away from this screen that I am often not true to my spiritual self. Some of the "unreal" baggage is beginning to drop away, though. And it is because the truth I find here is bigger than hurt feelings and the old rage I have carried for so long. Thanks for letting me know that I have been useful. Peace...

Pauline, my heart goes out to you and your mother. When I thought that I was losing my mother a few years ago, I felt like a frightened child inside. It is important that you take care of yourself as well as your mother. Get a good night's sleep if you can. Take some time each day to connect with the outdoors and with those things from which you can replenish your courage. This may sound obvious, but have you asked your mother what she needs of you? If she walks another path, lend her light from the lantern you carry, but maybe it is better not to try to take her a different path--unless her way provides no comfort for her. If she wants to talk about her fears, be ready to listen...even if it frightens you. And if you can muster a sense of humor, that is not being disrespectful at all. These are all just suggestions...follow your own instincts about what is best. From many places around the world, friends of the forum and sending you sacred thoughts...Pax...

Apologies - error in my email address in earlier message - correct address is as above. P.

Hi everyone. This is my first posting to the forum but like others of you I have been a 'silent reader' for some weeks. I hail from New Zealand which is deep in the southern hemisphere and a really neat place to visit. Deepak has been here 3 or 4 times (I've been to see him twice) so it's not the end of the earth! I have been a bit concerned that what I have to contribute may be a bit basic for many of you because one of the things that I'm interested in is how we act in the world while at the same time holding a truth that is very difficult to communicate to anyone who doesn't know what you are on about. So I try to bring a bit of wisdom to what I do in 'real life' (or is it?), and a bit of wizardry. What has prompted me to leave a posting is the encouragement of Chris V (to whom I sent a tentative 'do you think I have anything to offer' email - and thanks for his/her encouragement. Also I saw tonight from Terry (?) a piece about the energy in money transactions and how money flowing out leads to money flowing in. Thoroughly endorse this. Wonder if any of you have read anything of Florence Scovell Shinn - an American writer who wrote in the 1920s, 30s and 40s. While she expresses it slightly differently it is amazing the similarities between what she says and what Deepak says. So I would appreciate hearing from any other Florence fans. One other thing. My mother, who has taken the position of an invalid all her life, has just been diagnosed with terminal lung cancer (at 74) and has 3 - 12 months to live. I am reading Elisabeth Kubler Ross and The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying at the moment but does anyone know if there is anything available ex Deepak or similar that can help me to help her to die peacefully? She thinks all this stuff is a bit suspect, although she is highly intelligent and together we seem to have the ability to manage our coincidences and communicate in non-physical ways (I had her [pain] symptoms just before she was diagnosed and couldn't work out what was wrong with me) - despite having quite a distant and sometimes difficult relationship. Would appreciate any thoughts you have. P

Thanks Terry, I really enjoyed reading about your work helping those in great need. It's beautiful. Everyone else - I've really enjoyed the dynamic exchanges happening here lately. Thanks.

12:15 am CDT Kansas
Obviously, you can all see the "need" I had going today, and I thank you all. Like Roie's response to Krisy, and the beautiful sentiments expressed to Peggy.
I was considering how "closed" the circle is (at least for me) where what we discuss freely is withheld "out there", unless we are with like minded and experienced people, and what it's meant to me, but it also reminded me of a Gallup Poll taken in the 70's or 80's that reported that 80 million people had had "transcendent" experiences, and 70 percent said they never wanted to have one again. They thought they were loosing their minds, and it scared the heck out of them. It's a shame that this "explosion" wasn't happening then so that they would have had people around to explain what was going on.
The problem still exists for those who don't have the time to explore, to seek, as well as the money to do it. "It's all happening perfectly", I know. In the Silence.......Namaste'

Wow, things really move fast here sometimes. I have been following the forum daily and it seems to have taken off today. I am still back at last week when Joe suggested that we all take a look at our shadow selves. The subsequent discussion about the Nazis and projected darkness has held me. I am still pondering my shadow self and coming up with some enlightening revelations. I have realized that shining light into the darkness is not necessarilu the only experience. I have come to the conclusion that light in the darknes allows us to get our bearings so that we can experience the darkness purely as darkness. And to be fluid in this aspect of self as well as in our "light" selves, truly does provide limitles possobilities. So thanks, Joe and everyone for the provocative suggestion. And another word about money - a woman I know told me that she does a money blessing any time that money leaves her hands. She said she blesses the energy contained in the exchange of money and it's destination (person, place or thing). I thought that this was a wonderful ritual and wanted to pass it along. Krisy, I am not entirely familiar with your boyfriend's diagnosis, but I have a friend who had a neurological illness several years ago that was difficult for her doctors to clearly diagnose. She went from being an entirely healthy woman to being bedbound in the span of about three weeks. It felt like she was slippping through my fingers when I would go to see her. She was in medical care for the entire course of her illness and underwent a host of medical tests and treatments. Her condition remained unchanged, but did not worsen. I tallked to her about Dr. Chopra's work and got her "Quantum Healing" which she forced herself to read. Then she read "Perfect Health". She started to adopt the suggestions Dr.Chopra recommended including meditation, aroma therapy, dietary changes and others. She did this as well as continue with her medical care. Not long afterward, she was admitted to The Neurological Institute in NYC. There she underwent more testing and the diagnosis remained a mystery. She continued her "alternative" course on her own while hospitalized. When presented with the suggestion to have a brain biopsy, she opted for a more conservative course of treatment. She began to respond favorably to her treatment and continued to follow both the medical treatment and the principles described in "Perfect Health". The healing course took many months, but now, five years later she is healthy and grateful. I am not suggesting that there is some "miracle cure" here, what I am saying is that there is much wisdom in Dr. Chopra's work and all can benefit from it. You might consider reading these books yourself and suggesting them to your boyfriend if you think he would benefit from the information. And Peggy, as always, had a wonderful thought about our directing healing thoughts and energy his (and your) way. And I will keep you both in my prayers. Love, Light and Pax (peace) to all.

Dear fellow seekers, Please! Please!! Taking a position on even a worthy cause detracts from the freedom that comes from soaring.

Enough about money.

Ask not what meditation is. Who gives it? Under what name? And what cost? This is politics. Like the stars, the streams, the mountains and the ubiquitous trees, meditation is. It is not to be talked about. Do it. Start in your own way. Soon you will make discoveries that will enlighten you. For when you are level A, you cannot imagine or verbalize or read about or think about what it is like at level B. Only you can discover it. So get on with it. Start right now with Om. You will make your own path, for if there are 6 billion people on this Earth, then there are 6 billion unique paths.

Forever free, look in on : http://www.yesic.com/rsadana/

What are we all doing? We are responding to the most fundamental need in us. It is to give expression to the artistic treasures waiting to be awakened. We have to get in touch with our Creativity consciousness, which takes us back to meditation. Once we see the light of pure creativity, our spirit will expand to cover the whole universe. May Om guide you to it. It is guiding me. With folded hands and my head bowed, Namaste to you all.

Hi everyone. This is the first message I've posted to this forum but I've been dropping in frequently for a few weeks. There is so much great stuff happening here-I haven't devoted enough time to this to keep up with what's being shared and had planned to wait until I was ready to spend more time before getting involved but I feel I need to say something so- here I am. For weeks I have been touched by the warmth of this forum but, most especially the love and support for everyone I see consistently expressed by Peggy. Peggy, I just need to tell you what wonderful feelings I get from the sincere emotion I feel coming through all of your communications in this forum. A couple weeks ago I felt it even more strongly when you sent a wish of love to include even "the silent eyes" that were following this forum- I was one! When I read today of your feeling "not as smug and distant" I almost laughed out loud- how amazing! I can not imagine someone with your loving and sincere energy ever seeming smug or distant! I just wanted to send my thanks for your contribution and let you know it's impact is being felt. Also, sorry for not being up to date but, what does "Pax" mean?

8:30 pm CDT Kansas
Katrina and Bill, as well as all seekers on this Forum. That was part of my question of "have I sold out spiritually" Katrina. There is no end in sight for all suffering people unless the people on the Forum, and all seekers, reach out and help where they can. I'm reminded of Buddha (Gautama) when he finally reached "enlightenment", and the question he faced was, do I keep this knowledge to myself, or do I share it? Of course we know what he decided. Anyway, my "break" comes each morning with an hour of "finding myself" (sometimes takes longer), and the same at night, when all the little cherubs are tucked in.
And of course your right on as well Bill. (Cosmic chuckle) "WE" have been playing around (going round and round)about smoking! I have shared with people that it keeps me "grounded" (but also stuck), and other "spiritual" teachers have confirmed that, but it does seem to be the key. Then you ask yourself, "Can't I have ANY shortcomings? How could this be affecting things?....You know, the usual "stuff".
My daughter lives in San Diego. Hope she isn't reading this.(Ha) No secrets in the "Universe". Thank you all again.
One other thing. This Forum, and where it's reaching is going to be a great "vehicle" for the transformation that has to happen. I'm spreading the word wherever I go. Namaste'

My Dear Terry: Peace to you in your work. Do not fear the money changer for he is not at your door. Even when you seek the funds you need they do not come. It is good to ask the question of yourself, what about me requires no money to show up right now? This may uncover the belief that has been hidden from you heretofore. Should you have courage to know the answer, your solution will be presented to you as well. The belief so revealed, you can choose a new one, one that works. Your intention is the focal point of your attention. But your intention can be screened from you by a belief operating without oversight from the seer of the thoughts. All abundance to you all. Peace and goodnight.

Terry, thanks for sharing your experiences today. How very sad. The people whom I've known who do the type of work that you do seem to be continually bombarded wtih disturbing situations like this without much relief. Do you ever get to take a break from it all, step away, perhaps even leave town and indulge in some "out of the box" experiences toward spiritual growth?

4:00 pm CDT Kansas
Alain-Yan, I wonder where that story originated , or is it just a "truism"? It's all a matter of how we say something? I heard that it was a Dominican priest, and a Jesuit talking together, and they both asked the Pope. Guess who asked it correctly?
Money!!!!-----Soooooooo, glad some one brought it up. "A servant is worthy of his hire, but not as you understand it"! Anyone ever come across that statement?
I would not be here, had it not been for a "profound" happening. A phenomenom that exceeded my most wildest imaginings. William James wrote about it, "Varieties of Religous Experiences". I won't go into all the details, but I was led to a "Spiritual Teacher" much like Dr. Chopra, and that has led to a lifetime of passing this knowledge on, mainly in the alcohol and addictions field. My dilemma is that I "know" that the gift was freely given, and I freely give it, but to date no one seems to give a damn about the success rate, as far as funding the effort goes. I'm sought out more and more, and believe me, there are hundreds right here in my small community (380,000) seeking help, and can't find it. I've brought this up in the past about "credentials", and I have none. Especially in this field. So my question! When you've been to the mountain top, you see many paths leading up to it (this Forum for instance), and you realize that there is only the "I" of the world (me), and "Spirit" doing this thing. There's where Dr. Chopra's, and recently Dr. Haye's comments about money have so far eluded me. Much comes back "spiritually", no question about that, but when it comes to a roof over your head, food, etc., what then. Have I "sold out" spiritually; why was all this stuff "shown" to me; am I "spiritually" unemployable? Well, enough for now. A young man just left that fell into the "trap" again, knows that he's about to lose everything (again), and thinking about taking his own, as well as his immediate families lives. Serious stuff. He's a good example of someone who let down on his "Spiritual Practices". Sorry if I brought any one down. With tears in my eyes, thank you all for being here. Namaste' every avenue.

I have just read your book Perfect Health and my biggest concern is to how I can find my doshas balance? I made the test and it seems that I am an Kappha. My results were Vatta: 42 Pitta: 52 Kappha: 89 I am not very sure about this, because everytime I make some of these tests, my answers are a little insecure. How do I get my configuration with a big accuracy level? Also, I live in Chile and would like to know how do I get contact with a trustable MT teacher and if there are some Ayurvedic Medicians here. Thanks.

The core of Deepak's beliefs begins with us contacting our higher self, the thinker of the thoughts. If you are interested in learning more about Deepak's Primordeal Sound Meditation technique feel free to contact us by E-Mail or call us at 310-545-2303

Tennessee, 3:46 pm CDT..... What a time I have had in reading your posts today! There are names that are new to me: Namaste to Shiree, Johann, Jim, Atheena, Rao, and Krissy. I hope that I haven't left anyone out. You are all welcome here. Krisy, I hope that you find an answer to your question about your boyfriend's tumor. Would you be willing to share his first name or a nickname? Then I think some of us would like to take a moment to direct healing thoughts his way. Now I send them to you for I know you must be in pain also. I will do that as soon as I finish my post here. Bill, I loved your story of the coincidence and the connection. "Knowing" first and then watching it unfold is thrilling. Scott, now that you mention it, my improved moods are being reflected to me. As you may know, I do not presently leave the house often, but in my phone contacts, especially with strangers, I have noticed that "they" seem to have become more upbeat and friendly. Maybe it's because I'm not so smug and distant anymore. Ak, thanks for the reminder about baby steps. I very much needed that right now. Your timing, for me, is excellent. Barbara, as always, your contributions are fascinating. Perhaps the thing about saliva and breath changes explain why it is best to eat in quiet. I'm so used to eating in front of the TV. Imagine what all of the negative garbage that filters through can do to our systems. To everyone, old friends and new, thank you....Pax...

Still on the money subject : maybe some of you know this little parable/story that could fit with the issue:
Two monks loved to go on the roof of the lamassery and smoke cigarettes. One day, one of the monks said to the other : I think we are wrong to smoke cigarettes, with our vows of spiritual research.
The other replied: Maybe you make a point! Lets ask the grand lama and ask him!
Next day, they met again on the roof and the first monk said : I was right, it is bad to smoke, the Grand Lama said. The second lama answered : What? I had another answer! What did you ask him? The first said : I asked the Grand Lama if it was allright to smoke when I meditate, and he said NO!
The second one replied : AH! I asked the Grand lama if it was allright to meditate when I smoke, and he said YES! ;)

DocJoe, your comment about money : bravo!!! You speak my words.

Goran: I will repeat for you something Deepak has said in my presence at least 10 times - he feels nothing but love for Maharishi. As to what TM does with their money, I doubt if any of us is privy to that info.

Atheena: It is good to cultivate the attitude of acceptance of whatever happens in your meditation - that's what is best for you. Don't meditate at bedtime or lying down as that tends to promote falling asleep, but if you fall asleep that's OK.

And then again there are those who believe that the flow of money is just another representation of the flow of life energy. There is a difference between a spiritual teacher who is motivated by money and one who receives money for his services. I think financial profit as a means is OK but as an end in itself will naturally lead away from abundance eventually anyway.

For Terry, because he loves the Kingdom : The ego can keep you in exile from the Kingdom, but in the Kingdom Itself, it has no power. :)

A quick comment about the issues about paying for a mediation teacher, or spiritual guide. “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and render unto God what is God’s” ----Jesus

Paying for spiritual guidance is not the same as paying for a carpenter to build my house, or paying for the food I buy at the store. History is full of bureaucratic systems that are created when spiritual movements become a means of financial profit. I agree with Ravi that the spiritual is best when it is free. The Tao is not moved by profit, but by abundance.

11:15 am CDT Kansas
great-Great-GREAT! What wisdom, and what progress! I've been wanting to say some things about others comments, but have been "time-bound" lately. My "maya" (that "I" created) is such that there are many worldly pulls, mainly other people I interact with. Never-the-less, I do check in frequently, as you all have been a life saver for me, in that this "maya" I refer to is a "lonely" journey when it comes to what we are all endeavoring to do. Become "sane"---- in the midst of "insanity"! I hope to get back on later today, and again, thank you all. Namaste'

Exercise for becoming less and lesser judgemental, so that the Wizard can be born quick:
This is all Myself. When I meet anyone,I remember this is a holy encounter. As I see him I will see myself. As I think of him I will think of myself. As I treat him I will treat myself. I try never to forget this, because in each encounter I will find myself or lose myself. I can encounter only part of myself because I am part of God, Who is everything. And because the wizard sees only light, he does not attack darkness but does shine it away. So let’s shine: creating the miracolous is much more fulfilling and exiting than making labels.

How breath becomes deadly.Deadly breath? Few thoughts to the ungoing discussion about feelings and emotions.
I read something quite interresting few days ago in a magazine.Who from you know that thoughts and feelings can alter the quality of food? That even our saliva can become poisened? A Japanese scientist published in December 95 in Taiwan in “ Suma Ching Hai News” the results of a research he had done with people. Dr. Kaths analysed the exhaled air from different people. He let the test persons breath into a glass-container that get locked and immedeately deep frozen. On the ground of the glass the breath condensed to a liquid that had different colours depending on the mood of the tested person. He acknoweledged that the breath of cheerful or kind people had a beautiful lavender-blue or white gold colour. On the other hand, with people who were angry, sad, or frustrated, the breath was somewhat greyish. Then Dr. Kaths looked for people who are always angry. This air had a dark yellow, a dark red-brown and a dark orange -red. What is conspicuous is that people who read auras describe the colours of the aura and their meaning quite similarly. At the end he tested the breath of real brutal people who had thoughts of killing, power,selfishness and fraud. The breath was darkbrown or even black. Dr. Kaths took this liquid and injected it into pigs and mice. After few minutes only the animals died. Bad thoughts and feelings poisen the breath so strong - our own breath of life - that animals can be killed with it. However, a compared test showed that injecting the condensed breath of light colours they did not take harm.
This is a confirmation of old teachings, specially Eastern ones, which were always extremely careful what kind of mood or state of mind the cook was in when preparing the meals. Perhaps these examples are precious for us to stay joyful and radiant instead of holding grudges or ressentment, loss of temper, having anger, and by this poisening our breath of life, which for me is the breath of the Universe, so to speak. I will close with few words from A Course in Miracles: When ever you are not wholly joyous, it is because you have reacted with a lack of love to one of God’s creations.

A suggestion fellow forum people, please note your country by your name, it'll be fun to see the worldwide network of contributors. Rao AVR - Law of Giving / Ravi - Money Both issues are curiously the same to me. the universe operates on various mechanisms of exchange. Sunlight received freely by the plants allows the plants to do their photsynthesis thing; photosynthesis allows the earths air to be available for you and me and the animals to breathe. The mechanism is exchange on a very automatic level, miraculous but automatic! We humans can tap into it on our level too but we must do it consciously. I have paid large sums of money for classes that I have taken and that have helped me actualize the readings I've done from Deepak and others. It is my experience that those who have something personally valuable at stake, work more intently. Those things that are free are of little value. Consider theft, to the theif, it's free, but the outcome for the theif is a life of unfulfillment and passionlessness. If one insists that all things should be free, then one is simply not tapped into the source of the universe which is pure creative energy. Real Life experience; eight months ago, I decided to begin giving my church 5% of my net income, and donate my time (a more valuable commodity) to several areas of interest to me. The rewards have been immense this year. Financially, but more importantly in the fact that I am living the life of rich fulfillment and passion that I only dreamed of before. Giving with the expectation of like kind reciprocation is not this idea. Freely given, the universe automatically finds a way to complete the circle. But the giving must be from the heart, it must be of value to the giver and it must be fully released to the universe. This is where Deepaks statement, release your attachment to the outcome can be applied. Be truly open to the wonders of the universe and it's wonders will be freely available to you. The action step here is found in you! What of true value to you do you have to give? Other giving experiences out there?

Greetings all! I remember studying about Esperanto in a philosophy of language class in college. It is supposed to take the best of the major Latin based languages and combine them into a single language that is far more intuitive to use and learn. It is indeed a noble experiment to help unite the world by the use of a common language. I doubt it will succeed however because it ignores that language can not be artificially created. Language is defined by usage. It grows and evolves over time in a similar way that biological organisms do. Today it appears that English is becoming established as the international language. Not because English is necessarily the best language (for instance, I’d be a much better speller if I wrote in Spanish... “I” before “E” except after “C”?!?!? What the heck is that???), but because it is the most widely used in the global community. Well, that is my $.02.

Deepak Chopra is very Good Man and I hope He does Speak Esperanto Universal Langauge.He promotes Peace and Love and Unity in Diversity.Esperanto Langauge make all of that more Possibility. Mr deepak i hope in futures you may Mention of Esperanto International Language. Please call 1-800-828-5944 or http://www.tio.net Http://www.esperanto.com Mi Amas Esperanton Multe?Esperanto #1 choice for Global Unity.

Dear fellow-seekers, What wonderful teachers you all are! May the ashirvad of Om smile upon uoy every day. Terry O, you are welcome. I am making some changes. Scott, no, you are not being cheap. Like the air of the Earth, like the beauty of each tree rooted in its soil, the spirit of meditation flows freely. Anyone who insists on money should be censured.

For a b c of meditation, free for ever, look in on:

http://www.yesic.com/rsadana

more on the way . . . Scott. Think Tree, Stream, Mountain, Unity or Duality. If it not based on nature, it will not work. Meditation cannot be contrived.

At the risk of repeating, write down on a piece of paper who you are, without using your name, your profession or your possessions. It is a good place to start. Good luck and may the blessing of Om bestow its choicest gifts on you all.

Dear Wizards, I had a wonderful lesson this week on the process of these lessons being incorporated in our lives, and I want to share. I was a basic "all or nothing" person, and that type of thinking caused me a lot of ups and downs. The paradigms we are trying to replace have to be chipped away bit by bit. Each day if we can stay focused and disciplined we are replacing those social conditioned reactions with the information we are reading, pondering, and living. The whole frustration I was feeling brought me to recall the movie, "What About Bob?" and the baby steps he was advised to take in making the changes in his life. It has helped me with patience with me. Namaste!

After geing totally mesmerised by the seven spiritual laws of success, I have a nagging doubt somewhere in my mind whether the law of giving can practical work in day to day life? Any common man's experiences?

Hi, a first-time visitor here. Just finished watching three and a half hour hours of Deepak on PBS. I've got a question: I have narcolepsy (people call it sleepy sickness) and every time I try to meditate I fall asleep. Is this common, or most likely due to my sleeping disorder?

I have finally found an explanation of why and how the universe functions in Dr. Chopra's words. An elegant integration of science and religion... Thank You

I was hoping to hear from someone who may have had or known someone who has had a brain tumor and used Deepak Chopra's therapy? My boyfriend has a Grade III anaplastic astrocytoma in the left temporal lobe.

Good day folks! Thank you so much for briefing me on meditation tecniques, I appreciated it! I decided to take a course in Mindfulness meditation here in Sweden, this weekend in fact. Some questions still occupy my inquiring mind though: 1)I would like to know what TM does with all the money they make? 2)Is there a clash or a breach between Deepak Chopra and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi at the moment? Why? I would once again be delighted to hear the forum's opinion on these matters, if you please. Terry> Thanks for your mail. The answer to your question is: I am a very special person with a very special keyboard! ;)

A coincidence or my ability to infuse others with good will? Actually, the Celestine Prophecy says that the "apparent coincidences" are not really coincidences at all, that is, not "accidental". Actually, it is an event that occurs simultaneously with another. So I get on the plane yesterday and on the commuter airline, I have to bend down to get under the door. My head turns and I'm looking directly into the eyes of the flight attendant, it's the connection of one soul recognizing another. She say's good morning as do I. I sit, front row, facing her. We talk about flying vs. driving and I say I usually drive to where we're going because it's very zen for me. She say's yeah me too. She serves the coffee and returns, I decided to give her a gift of confidence. So I said to her, "when I got on the plane and looked onto your eyes, my experience of you was that I felt a peaceful calm and knew I was connecting with someone on a similar path to my own." We talked further, we both like to listen to books on tape in the car, Oh! Wayne Dyer & Deepak Chopra tapes! They've spoken at her church, Oh! mine too...same church! I mention that I've just finished volunteer assisting a class that has really helped me actualize the material I've learned from Wayne and Deepak. She say's, that would really help her. Then I give her my biz card, she says, I'm planning to go into your business. I offered her help with that, too. Then she says she's also been trying to experience "Masterminding" and I tell her I have a Mastermind group that meets every other week. This was a very unique experience for me. What would have been the usual humdrum flight was really inspiring and hopefully will bring value to another as well. Thought you'd like to hear of my "coincidence".

Today's Deepak calendar says: Whenever there is turbulance in your mind, there is a corresponding turbulance in your BODY. For every mental event there is a physical event, and emotion is nothing but a thought attached to a sensation.

Hi I would like to ask Chopra if there isn't any hope that he and Maharishi join forces again?

Good Morning All......

My question of the day: Have any of you noticed an increase in how infectious your moods are? In other words, are you more able now (or simply more aware of it) that you can easily change most peoples moods, either for good or bad?

Sorry that the real time chat didn't come off... What are good times? Also, I'm not the only one who can schedule one you know... *smile*

Peace!

Shiree: There is some info on other pages at this site about what Deepak teaches. If you're interested you may be able to find some of his books at the library. If you have specific questions you can email me and I'll do my best to answer. Basically, Deepak writes about Mind Body Health, Ayurveda, and Human Potential.

I'll repeat the address for questions to Deepak via the Global Network------spiritques@aol.com

Now you see- coincidence. While I was writing that the forum got archived and came back so fast I was startled!!

I have been in touch with Patty at Random House and they are working on a way to limit the amount of material appearing here. Also, I would ask that you NOT use HTML tags unless you REALLY are CERTAIN that you know what you are doing with them. That may help to prevent unclosed tags from affecting the other posts on the forum. I appreciate that there are many wonderfully creative people here but the value really resides in our thoughts and not the fonts or paragraphs (or spelling!). Keeping it simple might be the best course right now.

I don't really have a comment but more of a question. And it is a whopper. I was just speaking with somene that spoke of Deepk Chopra. I would like to know what he is and what beliefs he espouses to. Thanks Shiree

I would like to know how can I ask question to Deepak Chopra. Kindly inform me with above mentioned request.Thank you

I would like to know how can I ask question to Deepak Chopra. Kindly inform me with above mentioned request.Thank you

Terry... It is probably a problem at your ISP (Internet Service Provider) and not so much the Deepak page.

Although it would be very nice (if the RandomHouse folks are listening) to try to limit this forum to 20K-30K and offer archives....

Beautiful Lars, thanks! Love and peace to all. Namaste

10:30 am CDT Kansas
Just checked out your instructions Scott, and it said the server was down. If they are the same as before for the "State of Insanity" (SOI), then I still have those. Won't be able to attend at that time, but I hope you have a good turn out.

I'd sure like to know if it's just my system, or if everyone is experiencing the same thing. I've just "updated" to Netscape 3.0, and it seems like forever to "update". Sometimes as slow as 500-600 bytes per second.

Colette, no misunderstanding at all. As Deepak says, that is the true "wakeful" state (timeless awareness), and one can chose to bring their attention to the thoughts being triggered by "present moment" happenings, or not. You've started us down another avenue----"Wakefulness". Love it-Love it-Love it!! When are we "awakened"? Namaste'

Announcing the 1st scheduled Real Time Spirit Chat

I found this on the Internet and wanted to share it with you:

"Many people feel that they are not able to love, they feel overwhelmed, there are so many problems; love never seems to emerge other than by glimpses. But you should know, that it is *not* something grand and perfect that is demanded; love is simply the will to reduce the distance between human beings and all living beings. And this will does not have to be big and generous, actually it is much better to take it step by step. Just by not demanding too much from yourself, not being too idealistic, you will be able to make every little step to a step in the service of love, through those small deeds that show, that you want to transcend distance, to get closer to others. It is the smaller deeds which in modesty and humility makes way for the greater ones. It is no good to demand to have it all at once, this inhibits development.

It is the small glance, the gentle shake of hands, the gentle touch, that shows that you want to get closer to the other; it is not the big gestures that are the most convincing - they are often false, they are expressions of a will, which has no heart.

It is love that shall make the Earth ascend again, it is love that is the honey of the Earth, it is love that again will make people's hearts melt with joy and happiness."

Peggy, here is one coincidence I experienced a couple of months ago. I read The Celestine Prophesy last summer and found it very thoughtprovoking. After reading the book I changed my password to the network to "Celestine". A couple of months later, Emelie, a friend of my daughter's phoned and said that one of her friends was about to move from her one-room apartment and offered Emelie to rent it. By then Emelie already had a room but she thought maybe my daughter would like to rent it?

"Sure. And what is your friend's name?"

"Celestine"

And that's a VERY unusual name here in Sweden.

Namaste.

Oops...I forgot to mention, we live in a city of about half a million people...

Tennessee, 6:10 am The bleary-eyed woman with the bifocals liked the larger print...Oh well....Good morning and all day blessings to you all......After reading most of The Celestine Prophesy, I have become interested in the concept of coincidence. I would like to share this with you: My husband and I met over our computers on a local BBS in 1985. We had logged on to the BBS within four days of each other. After exchanging messages for a couple of months, I realized that I had actually met him nine years before---the night his brother had moved into the apartment next to mine in 1976. His sister-in-law and I had been friends while they lived there. When I met my husband in 1985, he had been widowed for almost a year. One of my current friends had been present when he had met his first wife in 1959. Also, one of his wife's bridesmaid's was a friend of mine and attended our wedding. Finally, when I had an appartment in a converted house in 1969, I spent a lot of time sitting on my front steps. I did not know that they overlooked , through the block, the backyard of my future husband. He walked past my steps frequently on his way to the store. Now we've been married for almost eleven years. Was this meant to be or what?......Would anyone else like to share coincidences? Pax....

Anyone read "The Return of Merlin"

Hi John Paul Ringo George, Popeye and everyone else! I just want to say that a mantra meditation that is inexpensive (like Deepak's PSM) is well worth the money because you cannot stumble across the specific mantra suited to your own individual nervous system. Plus you need guidance on how to do it properly and to get feedback from trained instructors after you've learnt. I am not a meditation teacher so I'm not drumming up business. You want to do it just right. Yes it's worth the money to learn how to escape the prison of the intellect. By this I mean that during an effortless meditation one spontaneously transcends. The mantra allows this to occur due to the vibratory effects of its special sound which settle the mind and guides it to more subtler aspects of itself. Going into the gap means diving into the subconscious. Deepak was bold enough to say on August 9th (in the ask Deepak archive) that this untapped area of the mind is actually the conscious part and the waking state is really the subconscious mind! Wow - cheeky boy. It gets one thinking doesn't it. I never meant to 'try' to stop thoughts Terry. I hope that you did not misinterpret me. As far as I know one becomes not so identified with thought as before and I think that you are able to 'witness' or Be the Wizard as the mind continues thinking. Then when you transcend momentarily in meditation thought is suspended. As far as I know enlightened people still think - or their minds do - their spirit witnesses. Maybe Deepak can comment on this some day. It's all a journey of discovery. Love to all. Namaste.

10:00 pm CDT Kansas
I don't know if I downloaded something wrong, or I don't like change, or all those BIG LETTERS are having an affect on how long it takes to "update". It just took over ten minutes. Anyone experiencing the same??? This is going to be like watching a network movie, I can go eat, take a shower, or whatever.

Scott, Kitty and Peggy have pretty much said it! It's like I mentioned some time back about the 12 Steps. The first five are a "fast track" in getting to know ourselves. To "know ourselves" (what makes up our ego structure), can show us memory (sub-conscious) programming (concepts, pre-concieved ideas) that separates us from that "place".

Chris talked about how what he "sees" in others, and the "outer" world, are only a reflection of his own inner thoughts. For instance, if I see a person I don't know, and don't like them, the reason I don't like them is "in" me.

In meditation, we can learn how to bypass (transcend) all this "thinking" in our memory bank (sub-conscious), and be in that "place" Freud called the "super-conscious" mind. "That peace that passes all (human) understanding".

Here we pick up on what Colette was talking about. The more we "go into" that place (spiritual practice---meditate) the more we begin to "see" the the thoughts ("worldly" thinking) that separate us from that "place". That's when we can use whatever techniques we chose to get rid of the thoughts, as meditation takes us "past" all the thoughts that are going on (like right now), but when we awake, all the concepts and preconceived ideas are still there in our memory.

After all this, yes, get a guide, and from what's been said, Deepak's the way. Namaste'

Wonderful words--this forum is really special as are the people! I had an interesting thing happen this weekend that I thought I'd share. On my refrigerator I post "stuff" that I like to read. I had posted the poem from the Wizard which says, "What if you slept, and what if, in your sleep you dreamed?And what if, in your dream you went to heaven and there plucked a strange and beautiful flower? And what if, when you awoke, you had the flower in your hand? What then?" Some young people (teens) were visiting me and saw the poem. They wanted copies for themselves so I ran a few off on the computer. Today, they called and more of the kids at the high school want copies as well as to know where they can get the book to read...So, you never know when the smallest thing might have infinte possibilities! Peace to all Kathy

Oh no, I tried to put in paragraph breaks but got some bolding instead. My apologies. Scott, my 2 cents on paying to learn meditation (no pun intended). For me it had to do with a personal level of how important I thought it was in my life. I had tried techniques I read about but got to a point I felt I wanted to really commit to it and wanted some guidance too. So I paid to take PSM. It is MUCH, MUCH cheaper than TM. I'm really glad I took the course - things are already working better than my previous attempts on my own.

Re emotions: Several years ago while living overseas I went through a difficult time involving both business & personal events. Feeling very down, I picked up and read a book called Feeling Good by David Burns. This book describes the process of "Cognitive Therapy", involving a structured way to review and modify the self-talk or chatter which is just about constantly with us and greatly influences our feelings and behaviors. This is not a book you read - you "do" it.

I followed the book, and the changes in my life were profound, and have lasted. This process got to the source of my "negative" emotions (including anger, jealousy, guilt) and in many cases just evaporated them. After following this process a while, not only did I feel a sense of joy and freedom, I started sensing a "light" that was always near me, not visible exactly but sensed, as if out of the corner of my eye, or when you sense light with your eyes closed. I felt it was an "inner light". I have often wondered why this process would do some of the things that more spiritual pursuits like meditation do - maybe because it includes an effective, systematic way to incorporate such things as non-judging in everyday life.

For those struggling with emotions, you might want to check this out. I think there is a synergy with Deepak’s writings.

Technical Briefing: The big letters are the result of an unclosed tag in the bost from "The Beatles". There is a "big" tag that the person did not close, thus, all posts after it show up "big". Since our posts cannot show up after that, there is no way for us to correct it. Someone would need to go into the file on Random House's server and "close the tag".

Main message: I want to start to learn about meditiation, but am not sure I want to spend the money on a teacher... Am I just being cheap?

Peace!

Ack! What happend? Everything just got much bigger!

I liked your 2:40 PM post Terry. Everything else said here are just footnotes to that "idea".

.....and "verse vicesa" JPGand R.....Thank you all, again, for listening and giving. Scott, I will be happy to hear from you in email. I appreciate your caring enough to take the time.......It is becoming obvious to me that I need to be meditating on a regular basis. I've known it for years. In fact, I did meditate for a while, but without much guidance and my "technique" left much to be desired. I have already begun to eat better foods in better ways and I am sleeping through the night. I can feel big changes coming....Tennessee, 4:06pm, CDT....Pax...

I don't know how my last post came out, but I sure "blew" something on this end. I downloaded the Netscape update to 3.0, but that's all, but what I'm receiving "back" from updating is BOLD, BIG, AND LONG. Any suggestions Scott?

"...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

2:40 pm CDT Kansas
Well, it's impossible to get into to names, as there are so many that have shared such great "stuff"! I've found that behind every emotion lies a thought.
Not only does the thought separate me from that "place", I have to take some sort of action to get rid of it. I have to do something with it. (Consciously or otherwise) In most cases, none of them have anything to do with "this moment". The more we continue to "let" the thoughts go, the more we learn how to live in the moment (gap).
I've found that our "worldly" selves can develop a block to "living in the light" when we approach "getting rid" of all this's and that's (thinking), good or bad. The question arises, as I've heard talked about, what will be left? "I" won't be living, feeling, experiencing! I'll be a sociopath without feelings! That's a fear we need not be concerned with, as it's just our thinking again. What happens is that we are even more compassionate, loving, as nothing is separating us from "IT". We "embrace" all the failings of our "unknowing", our ignorance....., in all humbleness. We bow our heads in gratitude for His Grace, and Love, that have brought us to this place, this Forum, each other. Namaste'

I'd like to bring things down to earth for just a moment, to discuss the need to take the "long view" in our efforts to behave in conformance with spiritual principles in our day-to-day dealings with people, especially those think Deepak Chopra is something found in the produce department. In my work as a mediator/arbitrator, and in my role as a parent of five children, one of the most challenging laws to follow consistently is the Law of Karma, especially the part about making choices that bring fulfillment and happiness to everyone they affect. I often find myself making choices (decisions) that someone does not like. In the short term at least, such decisions on my part bring not "fulfillment and happiness," but unhappiness and resentment. In such cases, I must take the long view, that the people affected by my choices are presented with a opportunities to learn and grow, and should they choose to accept the situation as it is, and deal with it courageously, fulfillment and happiness will eventually result. Approaching such difficult choices in this manner gives me the courage and resolve to "do the right thing" consistently. For me, the writings of Deepak, and of Stephen Covey provide the framework I need to achieve fulfillment and happiness in my daily life. Oh, yes, then there is Mark Twain, who said: "Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest."

Thanks Scott for your illuminating comments. A few months ago I watched a fascinating documentary on Hitler and the rise of the Nazi’s. Hitler was an amazing orator and a brilliant statesman, but he was simply a megalomaniac and quite insane (my judgment). History judges him as a madman, but hindsight is always 20/20. If we take the time to understand the climate of post W.W.I Germany, it is easy to understand how someone like Hitler could rise to power.

Thanks Dr. Hayes for your wonderful insight. I know from my own experience that the things that I dislike the most in others is really that which I dislike about myself. We do not see the world the way it is, we see the world the way we are. For example, I dislike people who are dogmatic and close-minded, and yet I recognize that I can be just as dogmatic and close-minded about certain topics. Knowing this about myself, I can relax more when I am around people that I perceive to be close-minded as well as when I catch myself being close-minded.

Remember, the mind is like a parachute. It works best when it is open.

I passed along the suggestion that the forum be "pruned" more frequently at the end of last week. Hopefully we'll see that happen soon, but I wanted to let you know that I heard and passed it along.

Transcending and going into the Gap are the same concept. Thanks to Buddy for fielding some of the meditation questions. Remember if you need a teacher you can call Infinite Possibilities or email me.

There is a vedic saying that an enlightened man can ingest poison and turn it to nectar, but an unenlightened man can take nectar and turn it to poison. This can hold true not only for food we ingest but experiences, including emotions. All emotions have a purpose. The Nazi's wished not to accept that they could possibly be any of the things that they projected on the Jews. If you look at Naziism (a word?) in that light you may see that if they could have accepted the possibility of the evil they "saw" as being of themselves and had not needed to find a race to project it on many people might have been spared. Unfortunately we still see lots of people projecting the parts of themselves they don't like out on minorities. We also still see people perpetrating (Sp?) violence in the name of their projections. The bottom line would be that if we can accept all, including what we label bad, as existing in us our need for projection decreases.

Good Monday morning all... after just arriving at work after a 3x normal commute (1.5hrs instead of 30 minutes *ugh*) it is wonderful to read all of these great mind stretching thoughts...

Peggy, your post regarding acting on emotions has really stirred me to thought. I am going to post something about what you ask and if it's OK, I'd like to mail you something a little later on, when I've thought some more about it.

Emotions are a natural part of life, and good or bad are simply judgements. This is what the readings have told me. I have yet to completely internalize them, but do believe them at a fundamental level. The Nazis is a terribly emotion-laden topic of discussion, but their actions do illustrate a number of points:

First, I believe that much of the hatred in pre-WWII Germany was situational, destructive discontent with an overly severe punishment of Germany for their actions in WWII. Hitler took this hatred and channeled it against a portion of the population (the Jews). If you recall Maslow's hierarchy of needs, much of Germany's population was having trouble with the basic needs. When Hitler promised a "strong" Germany, people did not really "think" about what they were doing. To quote Dr. Covey, if you suck all of the air out of a room of people, people's sole desire/need/etc. is to get air, and I think this can explain some very bad behavior by otherwise good people.

The real problem in hostility occurs when one group of people begin to see others as objects and not people. When this happens, wars occur, people kill, rob, etc. and act out of their negative emotions. This has been written as "means vs. ends", etc.

So, to your original question, should we just accept our hatred... I feel that accepting an emotion and acting on it are different. Yes, negative emotions are extremely destructive, more so if acted upon. But, those feelings happen and by not acknowledging them ourselves, we run the risk of allowing someone to use this un-expressed emotion to direct our actions (e.g. the Nazis in WWII). Accepting and Dealing with emotions are the only ways to retain control of our own lives and actions.

A thousand apologies for the length of this post... Peace!.

Buddy - Thank you for your insights on TM and Primordial Sound Meditation. I've also been a TM'er for about 20 years, and have been wondering if I should give Primordial Sound a try -- Sounds like it might be worthwhile!

Goren, It was rather early in the a.m. when I read your question. Mindfulness meditation is innocently putting attention on the breath. You actually watch the breath as a means to get to the gap. It's not as reliable as Primordial Sound Meditation, but it does work. Namaste', Buddy.

Goren, Primordial Sound Meditation and Transcendental Meditation are both forms of mantra meditation to take themind to more abstract levels of thought until we go beyond(transcend, if you will) thought all together and enter the realm of the soul and spirit. Having practiced TM for 18 years before I learned Primordial Sound Meditation, I can tell you that they are different systems of mantra within the Vedic tradition. I liked Primordial Sound so much that I am now teaching it in the middle Tennessee area. I had two 20+ year TM Sidhas (advanced meditators) in my course this weekend and they are now practicing Primordial Sound Meditation. It's a matter of personal preference. I've heard Deepak say this himself. For me, the mantra selection is so personal and precise in Primordial Sound that, to quote a course participant of mine, they "fit like a glove".I hope this answers your questions. Peace to all! Buddy

Some of you recommended The Celestine Prophesy. I am SO glad that you did! My response to someone"s question about the ego described an eye which sees everything, *is* everything, and feels boundless. That was the experience that sent me on my spiritual quest 15 years ago. Deepak has described this experience in some of his work. He mentioned Maslow's "peak experiences" as being the same or similar. And I assume that "the gap" refers, in part, to this same extraordinary experience that is so hard to describe. I had not yet arrived at the appropriate passages in The Celestine Prophesy when I posted my brief and inadequate description here......Thanks, Terry and others who have been here to recommend the book and help to answer a fifteen year old mystery. "May the long time sun shine upon you, all love surround you, and the pure light within you guide you all the way home."----from a song, author unknown. Pax...

5:42 am CDT, Tennessee...... For the last week or so, I have changed my night owl status. I'm in bed by ten pm and up by six am. The days seem longer and fuller. I like it!...... Chris, you always manage to say just the right thing at the right time. Thanks for your weekend presence here......Beth, may you be comforted. We will welcome your return here. ....Maryann, I hope that you come back to this place again.

Hello everyone. I don't often visit here on weekends, but I somehow felt drawn to check in as see what wonderful wisdom is being shared here tonight.

As far as good emotions and bad emotions I'd like to make this comment. I agree with Bill, emotions are neither good or bad, they just are. However, some emotions can be highly destructive to ourselves and to others. These emotions need to be controlled. By learning self acceptance, as well as mental and spiritual discipline, controlling these emotions can be done without suppressing them (which clearly is bad for the physical as well as the psychic body.) The Bhagavad Gita says, "For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom, nor for the uncontrolled is there the power of concentration; and for him without concentration there is no peace. And for the unpeaceful, how can there be happiness?"

Another quote I came across I'd like to share: "A man is born gentle and weak. At his death he is hard and stiff. Green plants are tender and filled with sap. At their death they are withered and dry. Therefore the stiff and the unbending is the disciple of death. The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life. Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle. A tree that is unbending is easily broken. The hard and the strong will fall. The soft and the weak will overcome." ---- Lao Tzu

Hello everyone. I don't often visit here on weekends, but I somehow felt drawn to check in as see what wonderful wisdom is being shared here tonight.

As far as good emotions and bad emotions I'd like to make this comment. I agree with Bill, emotions are neither good or bad, they just are. However, some emotions can be highly destructive to ourselves and to others. These emotions need to be controlled. By learning self acceptance, as well as mental and spiritual discipline, controlling these emotions can be done without suppressing them (which clearly is bad for the physical as well as the psychic body.) The Bhagavad Gita says, "For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom, nor for the uncontrolled is there the power of concentration; and for him without concentration there is no peace. And for the unpeaceful, how can there be happiness?"

Another quote I came across I'd like to share: "A man is born gentle and weak. At his death he is hard and stiff. Green plants are tender and filled with sap. At their death they are withered and dry. Therefore the stiff and the unbending is the disciple of death. The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life. Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle. A tree that is unbending is easily broken. The hard and the strong will fall. The soft and the weak will overcome." ---- Lao Tzu

According to A Course In Miracles (as I have learned it) we do choose who our parents are, when we are born, etc. Infact, in an other dimension, where we are all spiritual beings, we agreed to return in our present family unit in order to learn the lessons that we need to learn. A part of me agrees with this and another part cannot accept it. But some how I can't believe that all of this is totally random and by chance. Just as it is not by chance that we are the people who are connecting on this forum. Each of us, brings different, but necessary support to some one who "happens" to read what is written.

I'll be gone for a week. My husband's aunt just left her body and we are going to be with his family. A loss like this always, for me, brings me back to my own temporary stay in this human/ego state.

To all of you who give so much of your selves, thank you very much. Namaste

Maybe we do choose our parents, place of birth, etc...... Since most of the people who have ever been born are still alive (or so scientists and historians believe), is it possible that more than one person is a reincarnation of the same being?........ Are we in a position to judge, if we choose to, how far along a person is in working out her karma? Is it possible that Charles Manson, for example, is further along the road to enlightenment than a Buddist monk or a saint?.......Scott, I have been told that feelings are neither good nor bad...they just are. But some of our feelings/emotions, if acted upon, can bring great harm to others and ourselves. Should the Nazis have just accepted their hatred? Do you really think that I should accept the rage that has been part of me? I think that acknowledging the rage, examining it, controling it without internalizing it, and sending it away---are techniques that are beginning to bring some measure of peace to my life. Anger can be a healthy response, but not if it consumes me. ......My mind is going in about six different directions. You certainly make me THINK. Pax...

4:15 pm CDT Kansas
I sure need spell check. I have been wondering if Dr. Chopra is sick or something, as the "Ask Deepak" page has stopped at Aug 31.
Bill, above where we post our comments you'll see "Read the Archive", and if you click on it, you can go back to Aug 22. Which brings me to another suggestion, and that is could the current date be used on this forum as the cutoff for what is downloaded each time we post, or update? Maybe a couple of days, and then "archive" it, or is part of the "download" the archive too? Namaste'

2:30pm CDT Kansas
You're sure "digging deep" now Colette. Your last question to Joe is going to be a personal one in that , as "everything" is relative to one's own state of evolvement, and definition of "ego", it can change.

For instance, the concept of "reincarnation", which was prevalent in the beginning of Christianity, and well established in Hindu/Buddhist philosophy. Buddha (Gautama) related that when he reached "enlightenment" he could see his past 99,000 incarnations. Am "I" only going through a learning process that began eon's ago, where the "maya" I didn't go through, as well as Karma I created then, is being "worked" out now?

How about the fact that we are "God" in form, and as we didn't chose out parents, the country, time and place of our birth, etc., we had to get "lost" in the conditions of our birth, so that we could be of service to the world "as it is" (people in our circle of influence), to take them, us, "it" to a still "higher plane" of awareness?

Has anyone ever come across a young person who, in spite of all our best efforts, can't control a "rage" that's going on inside them? Under hypnosis it's discovered that as an infant, violent, traumatic experiences registered in their "consciousness" (memory, sub-conscious) that as an adolescent he had no conscious memory about.

I've grown up with the thought that the "age of reason" began a 7 (seven). Is this when the "ego" starts? I've settled for that first "moment" of "separatness" when the "socialization of the child" begins, as the fact of the positions taken by science can't be reconciled to what I've previously stated. "Child like" awareness seems to sum it up. Namaste'

Hi everyone! Here are 2 questions regarding meditation: 1) Can you explain to me what the differences are; in purpose, technique and cost when comparing the two types of meditation: TM(Transcendental Meditation) and Mindful Meditation(advised by Chopra)? 2) What is Deepak Chopra's opinion on TM?

Deepak says that meditation is very important in applying the "Law of Pure Potentiality", however meditation appears to be so mysterious in that there are so many different forms and types. Can someone shed some light on the "basics" of meditation for the novice?

Bill I like what you wrote, sounds good. Joe I am an early childhood trained teacher so I look forward to your insights into birth of the ego.

12:10 am CDT Kansas

"Those who know not that the other side of the face of the Prince of Darkness is the King of Light--- know not ME"! Goodnight! Namaste'

Fellow seekers, I have another flavour to present to you. Who are we? And what is our true nature and potential? We are all "g's" created in the image of "G". We have the potential to grow and take on all the qualities and virtues of "G".

It follows that we are born with dormant "Buddhi", which means the knowledge to unravel the mysteries of every-day life and universal phenomenon. Through our senses, i.e. reading a book, listening to a discourse by engaging in intellectual exercise we bring portions of the dormant "Buddhi" into our awareness. Emotional and Astral experiences also bring aspects of a different kind of knowledge into our awareness.

You can guess where I am going with this. By getting in touch with our inner reality, like Lord Buddha did ( notice the root of the word - Buddhi) we can untap the immense storehouse of this knowledge. It does not come through words, or an intellectual treatment of concepts. It comes about intuitively. Buddhi is inborn and has to be realized internally. If there are 6 billion people on this Earth, then there are 6 billion unique ways of going about it. Ask Deepak about it. His knowledge comes from Patanjali's YogaShastras, just like mine does.

Om makes it happen. Utter it with devotion, think of it; dwell on it; imbibe it through each and every pore of your being. Its immutable ashirvad(blessing) will visit you with a blinding but gloriously soothing glow.

For OM consciousness lookin on:

http://www.yesic.com/rsadana

Scott - Portland, Oregon see www.contextassociated.com for relevant information. Dr. Joe, Collette, All: Once I begin to accept that I am a composite of all possibilities, then I can be in truth with myself. Now this is risky for me and it must be for some of you because I was taught that good boys are only a "certain" way and that there are "good" emotions and "bad" emotions. This is illusion again. There are simply, emotions. What do I do with this, nothing! However, BEING with it is another story. BEING with it means that I am in a state of joyful acceptance of whatever comes up for me. It is not to be in resistance to whatever comes up for me. It is not to be in denial to whatever comes up for me. It is to BE with whatever comes up for me. When I am being with emotion, then I do not need to be controlled by them, but I can be an engaged observer. When I, as an engaged observer, can say; I feel anger now. Then, from an experience of truth, I can release it to the universe. As Deepak has written in the Affluence book (exact title?) The universe has infinite organizing power. What this means to me is, the emotion has a purpose and a communication for me. I can misinterpret it with judgement, anger is "bad", or I can simply BE with it and let the universe handle the details. In so doing, I can retain flow and flexibility and I can experience life richly and fully without editing. By the way today's Deepak calendar says, "Doing anything physical is much better than remaining inactive." I think this relates to what I've been saying because emotions are physical manifestations. We only get confused by them when we get mental with them, in other words, when we are inactive with them. As a spiritual being having a human experience, I want to allow myself to truly have the EXPERIENCE. Good night. Peace and love.

Hi Kitty, welcome to the forum and family of meditators on planet earth. I think that Deepak's term going into the gap means the same as transcending thought. Maybe Joe can verify this..

Tennessee, 6:23pm Joe, you have touched on something which I find difficult to deal with. In reading histories of the Holocaust in my early twenties, I was unaware of how much "average citizens" participated. The more I learn about it, the more frightening it seems. Given the same circumstances, would I have been so evil? Everything I am learning tells me that the Jews and the Nazis were of one spirit. It is very humbling to think that I too may be capable of such atrocities. How can I acknowledge such an idea without feeling guilt? Yet guilt serves no purpose. This is very troubling to me. I hope that we can talk about it more.....This forum has become very important in my life. Coming here is like taking Communion. Bless you all for taking the time to give of yourselves. Pax...

Tennessee, 6:23pm Joe, you have touched on something which I find difficult to deal with. In reading histories of the Holocaust in my early twenties, I was unaware of how much "average citizens" participated. The more I learn about it, the more frightening it seems. Given the same circumstances, would I have been so evil? Everything I am learning tells me that the Jews and the Nazis were of one spirit. It is very humbling to think that I too may be capable of such atrocities. How can I acknowledge such an idea without feeling guilt? Yet guilt serves no purpose. This is very troubling to me. I hope that we can talk about it more.....This forum has become very important in my life. Coming here is like taking Communion. Bless you all for taking the time to give of yourselves. Pax...

Bill has raised the issue of our shadow in his last post. That would be a fertile area for discussion. Can you accept that ALL possibilities reside within you-sinner and saint;genius and madman and anything else you can think of?

Colette! You see what happens. You prodded my doctor ego into writing a lecture on Early Childhood development and I sent it and the Chopra Forum Filter zapped it right out. Alas, it was not meant to be. I will email you my scholarly ego talk soon. Right now I have to go home. Bye!!

Colette, thank you. Isn't this great?

In re-reading your last post I was reminded of a spiritual teachers remark----"You are already "IT", you're just busy, busy, busy, thinking---your not!"

2:45 pm CDT Kansas

As in the "Celestine Prophecy" and Dr. Chopra's "Giving/Receiving"----What am I moved to contribute?

"In the SILENCE, you can hear it all"! In that "place" of "Pure Potentiality", there is no "I" (ego)(thinking), present.

This relates to what Colette was saying yesterday, as well as Chris. How do we arrive at that "place"? From the "sound" of it (having no experience with it), Dr. Chopra's Primordial Sound Meditation is probably his recommended "method". There are others, but I can see the efficacy of his. Like Colette indicated yesterday, and all spiritual teachers recomment, "spiritual practices" are the method used to cultivate (become "one" with) that "place" within us. In these practices, whatever method works for each of us, we "transcend" our ego's. Our "consciousness" is taken beyond, past, into a whole new awareness.

With repetition (practice), as Colette suggested, we begin to live more and more in that "place". We see the "thoughts" that separate us from that "place" (it's all an inside job), and learn how to get rid of them. Here we can use "methods" again, as Bill suggests, to think our way out of "blocks", and/or apply the principle of LOVE and "let go, let God", as every person, place, or thing is "IT'S" anyway, including us. Again, Thank You All!!! Namaste'

Bill.... Where on the west coast? I have written some articles about this type of thing and am thinking of developing a class

Have you heard of a company called the Patnaude Group? They offer a number of these courses as well.... Journey to Inner Excellence, etc.

Terry you don't have to go into a cave to live your true Self in the Spirit. It's here right now with you where you are right now. You are already it - perfect unconditional Divine Love and Creative Intelligence. You just need to become aware of it. As you are an ardent seeker this knowledge will come. In the meantime I want you and all here to be very proud of yourselves, because as seekers reaching for the light we are all instrumental in the earth's healing process, as well as our own. And part of that healing is releasing the mental and physical toxins that try to keep us separate. This can be an uncomfortable process to go through. It is for me sometimes. Guys let's stop putting ourselves down by being judgemental. Let's love ourselves instead and be proud for those profound glimpses of the Spirit that have led us here to speak about it. Be here now and reach inside for the bliss and feel it flowing through you in this present moment. Love to you all. Namaste.

Good morning all! It is 12:03am on the west coast. I've been assisting a class called the Pursuit of Excellence. It is what one might call an entry level course for people who are choosing to enter onto a path of self knowledge. A distinction that I made last night might be relevant to the discussion of ego. Here is the concept. Let's talk about resentment and guilt. Well known human emotional responses, no? When I feel guilt it is really about my image of myself not matching the reality of myself. That is, I may not tell you the truth about me, but I'm NOT REALLY the kind of person who lies. There in is the illusion. I have not told you the truth yet I insist that I am not a liar. When I feel resentment towards another, it is really about the same thing except now my image of YOU doesn't match with the reality of you. If "you" are my mother and you are not being the way my image says a "good" mother would be, then I could feel resentful. Herein is the illusion, the way you are IS the way you are and all the wishing on my part to have you be different will never match up with reality. Harn, Kitty, Maryann, welcome. There is love in this experience call the Deepak Chopra forum. Keep visiting, make yourself at home.

I just want to personally thank Deepak Chopra for bringing me out of the depths of hell. In late 1993 I began to suffer from "anxiety/panic attacks" which led to "depression","obesessive-compulsive disorder", and "alcoholism." Without getting into too much detail, modern ways of dealing with these problems only dealt with symptoms & not the cause, thusly my problems did not get any better, but they also did not get any worse. In January 1995 I purchased Chopra's "Magical Mind/Magical Body" tape series, which was my introduction into the world of "One mind/one body/one universe." From these teachings I learned to free myself from my mind and return to my body (return because that's where we were born, and somewhere got lost along the way). From this experience I purchased many other teachings of Chopra. Now I must say not only have I overcome anxiety, but I have become a better person because of this experience. As a result of my experience I'm still experiencing the lingering effects of alcoholism (believe me, alcoholism is heaven compared to full-fledged anxiety!), but with Chopra & my newly gained wisdom, everything will turn out O.K. Modern medicine really saddenes me, they have missed the point, and unfortunately modern society are just lambs being led to the slaughter!

To those of you referring to "transcending", could you say more about what that means? Is that the same as going into the gap, or is it something different? I've never taken TM, but have recently (VERY recently) taken Primordial Sound Meditation!!

5:30pm CDT Kansas

Great Colette!!!!! Now, instead of a question, change it to a statement. You've said it!

(Dr. Chopra)"We are spiritual beings, doing human things". Think about that. We are "spirit"! What you said about "transcending" our "programming" is right on. "Underneath, are the everlasting arms"! I agree with Chris's statement as well, for as long as we are in "form", we will have a "personality" driven by our true "essence", which is LOVE. This is a place of balance between totally living in the "spirit" (monkhood)totally, and where we are at physically. It's being "in the world, but not of it". I've decided that the only place I could "live in the spirit" would be in a cave in the Himalaya's, or some such place. But also as Dr. Chopra has indicated, we must accept our Dharma.

I don't know if I made any sense. Colette, your great at expressing things. Thanks. Namaste'

Thanks to the one who sent the angels message I'd like to read more.

Joe I'm curious, I do want to hear what your thoughts are on ego and how and when it arrives. This topic intrigues me. I have heard Dr. Chopra say that babies are 'innocent' of ego. Yet I can't help thinking that just by virtue of the fact that we are born into human form - brings the ego with it as part of the package. There's no shame in that. It's a monumental challenge to find that whispering spirit within playing hide and seek with us and our human senses. The human senses by their very nature look outside for the truth. And yet the spirit or Self can only be found by directing the mind within and transcending the human self. Dive into the Spirit in meditation and there 'you' hides. And it's not of the body, and you don't need your body senses to 'know' it. The body is a disguise we are all wearing to allow us to pretend to be separate from our true state of unity. The trouble is we identify ourselves as the disguise without remembering the real Self hiding in it. I remember reading a passage in A Course in Miracles which seemed to imply that every thought is a 'sin' or mistake, because thoughts themselves separate us from the Spirit. So perhaps ego is 'born' with our first thought. (Maybe I interpreted this wrong? But remember Deepak says that a Wizard doesn't think - He/She witnesses - chapter one I think.) And then comes the social conditioning on top. It's okay to think. But maybe you should learn a systematic technique for transcendence so that you can dive into the real You beyond thought too. This way you can experience your unbounded Self for at least some part of every day. In time the ego identification weakens and you start to be with the Spirit more in everyday life even when not meditating. Thus one day you will just identify with the Spirit and not with the disguise. Apparently we have agreed to take on this earthly disguise to enable us to understand the opposites inherent within the Whole. Our ego allows us this path. So maybe we should embrace it with love and appreciation to soothe and calm it as it's hold on us weakens. May we all realise our Unified Selves with as least pain and suffering as possible.

Well, so much for my spacing. Sorry, the top 6 lines are supose to go together. It reads much better that way.

Doc. Joe, for people like me who meed to see a sample of the finished product there are sites that offer a pre-view before comments are formally sent. And it also allows editing. Is that somthing we can get setup with this forum? I don't know about any one else, but it would be a great help for me. Thank, Namaste

With all your wonderful thoughts and quotations about nature and trees, I want to share this one from "356 Tao" - a book of daily readings that my husband and I read in the morning before we meditate.

"Trees

Did you measure to attain your height?

Did you use geometry to radiate your limbs?

Did you lament storm-torn branches?

Did you inventory your leaves for the sun?

You did not of these things, yet man in his cleverness

Cannot match your perfection.

When will we give up the artificiality of our tiresome lives and cleave instead to what is natural? All the achievements of man are only monuments to overwhelming pride. There has not been a single man-made item that has been a necessary improvement to the earth. Did we need the Great Wall of China? Did we need the pyramids of Egypt? Did we need the Colossus of Rhodes? Did we need mechanization, steam power, electricity, nuclear power, or computer technology? All our achievements have been for the sake of our exclusive comfort and gratification. We have only advanced the mad tangle of supply and demand that we call civilization.

We don’t need all this ‘sophistication’ in order to live with The Tao. Our involvement in society blinds us to this fact. We ignore the natural order of our own bodies and minds and close ourselves to the point so that only sex and drugs are stimulating enough. We lament that we are lost and alienated. Ironically, the answers are right nearby. If you just go to the nearest tree and contemplate, you will easily see the secret to natural living." Thank you for letting me share this with you. Namaste

Boy how the part of my ego that is a Pediatrician with a special interest in Behavioral and Developmental Pediatrics wants to begin lecturing on the establishment of ego in infants. Some people have spoken about how to turn off certain tendancies like analyzing, etc. and this is how I sometimes do it by giving voice to what I don't want to do. Rather than start lecturing (when you guys are doing just fine without my "expert" opinion) I recognize the part of me that wishes to go astray in a lighthearted way. If anyone else finds the technique useful, go right ahead and use it-you don't even have to cite me. ;-)

I would like to thank Maryann for this opportunity to play the wizard (of OZ!). Maryann you don't need a ticket! Why you've had it all along right there and you didn't even see it. Your path is the path of the overwhelmed working mother....... who seeks and you've been on it all along! The only thing you lack that other seekers have is a name for your path and so by the power of all the munchkins in munchkin land I hereby name it Maryannism. Let's not forget that as we seek we are all on the right path (for us) and they all have value! The path of working mother who seeks is a very special and sacred path and I join with others I'm sure in honoring Maryann and her path. I will certainly remember you in my prayers, Maryann.

“Life is a touchstone for the truth of the spirit. Spirit that drags a man away from life, seeking fulfilment only in itself, is a false spirit-though the man too is to blame, since he can choose whether he will give himself up to this spirit or not. Life and spirit are two powers or necessities between which man is placed. Spirit gives meaning to his life, and the possibility of its greatest development. But life is essential to spirit, since its truth is nothing if it cannot live.” ---- Carl Jung 1934

I enjoy your interpretations of the human experience. I am a working mother with a husband, 3 teens, extended family, as many of us are, I get overwhelmed. When I see you on PBS or read some of your wisdom, it encourages me and talks to the seeker inside. I feel it. But, then I get caught back into the "pit". The buttons are pressed, the strings are pulled, and before I know it, the peace is shattered. I have often said that I need to go to the mountain or study with the monks or move in with Mr. Miagi (Karate Kid) for a while. Would my family recognize me when I returned? Could I teach them what I have learned? I ponder often. Also, I can meditate on the chakras and feel something, but have a hard time meditating otherwise. I think often of the Native Americans and their ways. I guess I am looking for the right path -- or actually the ticket to it. Thank you for your insight and please "pray" for me and I shall do the same for you.

2:15 pm CDT Kansas

One of the reasons I enter time, etc., is for me, as well as you, to get a "feel" as to when we're all "tuned in". I've been to the "chat room" Scott set up, and the only "visitors" who had been there (Kennie & Wolfy) visited 3 days ago, and there was two hours difference.

I asked about the "ego" and what everyone thinks about it so we might have a better understanding of what all the spiritual teachers (writers) are talking about. At least those that "know", and we could all head in that direction.

I usually get in trouble at this point by saying I "know" something! I'm fully aware of the statement "Those who speak don't know", but it's in the context of this Forum, you beautiful people, and the wisdom that is shared here, that I hope you pardon any transgressions I may make on your sensibilities.

In the "work" I do (helping others), dependent on their "lineage" (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.) I usually start off with a few simple statements Jesus said, and we go from there. He said the "Kingdom of Heaven is within, and unless you become as a little child, you can't enter the "Kingdom". (Kingdom'S in some schools of thought).

I'm referring to Scott's comments on the subject, as well as my own experience. I believe "separateness" is first "realized" (the beginning of the "ego")when that loving "space" (consciousness) we are in as a child is disturbed. I'm sure most of us have watched a small child get his hand slapped for the first time. That shocked look of surprise, bewilderment; the look to the perpetrator, and the tears.

From then on, "we" begin, and from on out, it's just societal programming. Sorry to be so windy. Love---Namaste'

Now the physical manifestation and the form state are such that when fully engaged in them, there is an illusion that ALL is physical and all is form. the formlessness that is most of reality is much too difficult to experience when the addiction to experience takes over. this is the trap that the hierarchy of the universe brings, innately contains as it were, the trap of the illusion that FORM is all there is. So seriously might one pursue the "fact" of form, so seriously that it is impossible to even trust the idea that formlessness is in fact reality too. If we penetrate out from the field of form we will view the universal hierarchy suchly; BODY; waves in form, in motion, but fixed for a time. EARTH, TREES, ROCKS & SKY; waves in form, motion (apparently slowed down). MIND; carried by identity from body to body for the purpose of recording history as experienced by each body. IDENTITY; the point of view that I AM. Carried for the purpose of knowing that awareness and consciousness are "focalpointed". SOUL; Totally formless, knowing, aware and conscious. In essence, god and none other. Yet agreeing to join the physical universe for the purpose of playing the game. GUIDES; Totally formless, knowing, aware and conscious. Also, god in essence. Agreeing to join the physical universe from the place of observer and advisor. Watching for opportunities to help the one in body seek pure knowing. ANGELS; totally formless and also of god and within the realm of god to counsel and teach and protect yet to transition between the realm of physical and pure formlessness. Beings of clear light! MASTERS; Ones of likeness to angels. Yet these ones agree to join the physical body experience of the universe in order to lead the game and give it direction to allow the game to move to a higher level. There ones are agreeing with god to become part of the universe in form to provide this gift of gods wonder. GOD; Not describable in any terms that would be useful. From whence creation and all that is and all that could be and all that ??? we are not knowing the words, they do not exist and cannot be created. It is from this that the ancients would not even speak gods name as god, they created a word that would show honor but not attempt to lower the totality of god to the physical words of description. It is too all and everything for there to be more said. Yet from this all stated before, you will deduce that there is a hierarchy that is quite involved. There are some more subtle layers that we have not spoken of here this day. Perhaps they will be meaningful in another time.

Rochelle.. I have set up a chat room at a different site for "real time" but most of the contributors here have somewhat different schedules.

But here's an idea... Why don't we try to schedule some time when we can all be there? hmmmmmmmm What do you all think? Anyway... here again a link to the instructions....Chat Room Instructions

Peace!

When is ego "realized".

I believe when we are born we are only aware of the "one-ness" of the universe, we sense and feel the entire hum of life. But as we begin to experience seperate things, like nurses, doctors, Mom, Dad, etc., we begin to think of ourselves in terms of seperation as well.

If you ever watch babies, they are the most accepting of all humans. They see everything with such wonder and amazement they don't make judgement calls, they just experience. When the begin to "expect" and experience the first disappointment, the feeling of seperateness begins to expand, they begin to feel alone, vulnerable, afraid. This fear feeds the negative voice in their head and they begin to sense even more of a seperation from the force of life.

So, ego is strengthened by a circle of expectation and disappointment and a feeling of being "cut-off" from the natural energy of life.

My $0.02... Peace!

All, such wonderful ideas!!

I am a spiritual being who has not yet discovered his true self currently attempting to learn what I need to learn from a human experience in which my spirit is housed in this physical phenomenon known as "Scott" in this particular time-space continuum. I LOVE IT!!

This forum is truly expanding and I am getting excited. Ravi, I feel and hear the earth trembling as well, there is something wonderful beginning and we are coming into tune with it.

I had an interesting experience this morning. I saw a number of calves in a field on my way to work and could actually distinguish differences between them. I have been trying to notice differences between supposedly identical animals for a number of months and I am beginning to have success!

Today's spiritual law is the law of detachment, one I continue to struggle against. My interpretation of this law is that to achieve something, you must relinquish your attachment to it. TOUGH ONE! As Deepak said on one of his answers one day, focus on process and the results will follow.

Sorry about the length, my next thought in the next post with regards to when ego is "born".

Peace!

Ravi, you are certainly a creative person--as most thinkers are. What you said about Mozart and the Jupiter Symphony interests me. I have long thought that the second movement sounds other worldly or cosmic. What was going on with him at the time he wrote it?.......Terry, it's been over thirty years since my last child psychology class, but I think that the ego is already in existence at birth. And the baby extends her ego to everything she comes in contact with. Maybe our goal is to return to that state of unity--only this time without the ego. Someone commented that the ego is not such an undesireable thing to hold on to. Maybe so. But imagine this: Think of yourself as one eye in the sky. Everything that you see--forests, mountains, the stars---you are one with. You are those things and you feel totally boundless. Now, close the eye. Pax...

Fellow travellers, Hold a bright torch in your hand to reflect on your path for there are many following you who do not know the path. Do think about who we are? What is our true identity and purpose. I am a thinker, basically. And by the grace of OM today I had a brainstorm. I told you that Om will never let you down, never! I have been teaching my method for years. Today new ideas came into my intuition, new ideas for drawing analogies from nature for teaching. a) The Tree method, for reasons some of you may know. b) The Stream method. Remember Hesse's Siddhartha. c) The Mountain method; this came to me after I had climbed a mountain and I sat on top admiring how nature had inexorably spread itself all around, revealing its secrets in myriad ways. A question popped into my mind. How can I climb this mountain again, without having to climb down first. If you know the answer, then you know the secret to my 'Mountain method. d) The duality method. This is easy. You just arrange to hit the highest and the lowest points in your life at the same time. Like Mozart did when he wrote "Jupiter" Fellow travellers! great news is coming our way. The new light is shining and is getting brighter by the moment. I can hear the Earth rumbling.

Soon you will hear more about Mozart and even more about Beethoven, Musical Hieroglyphs and the fork in the road of homo sapien evolution, without which we would not be where we are today. Stay tuned and lookin on Http:/www.yesic.com to receive OM's aashirvad. Namaste to all from Ravi

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