To encourage the exchange of thoughts about Deepak Chopra and his work, we will post your comments, inquiries, and opinions. Please feel free to respond to someone else's comments or questions, or simply post your own. Post a Message | Read the Forum | Sign the Guestbook Please Post Your Comments Name: Email Address: Comments:

I meant to say 'not that far off' ...

As for 56789 being a 'winner', I can think of one four-letter word that might be appropriate ... if we all agree that is ... can you guess what it is ... :)

Well ... 66666 is not far off ... :)

Geoff -- You've also given me the idea to find the posts we've already passed like that. 12345, 23456, 34567, and 45678. I'll try to get those up before long. Feel free to beat me to it if you want to. What other "special numbers" can you think might make good "landmarks" to add to the Archive Index?

Geoff -- Great of you to notice that is coming up. I would no doubt have begun focusing on that as it got closer, but hadn't so far. I have noticed, without comment, several of the "full houses" we had passed in the "56xxx" range, such as 56556, 56565, 56566, etc., and of course I'm looking for a big celebration when we hit 57000, which could come as early as this next week, and surely before the New Millennium starts.

Let's just hope the 56789 post is a real winner!

Bon Voyage, Chris and Happy Trails.

Brad, I'm not so sure that calm, nonviolent people always avoid violence. Look at what has happened to Tibet. I recently watched a doco where they interviewed some Tibetan refugees. The thing that struck me was the complete absence of of hostility or resentment from the refugees as they described the torture they experienced at the hands of the Chinese simply for their religious beliefs (which include the principle of nonviolence towards all beings). Yet, one has to wonder if China had never invaded Tibet how many of us in the West would have got to read the words of the various Lamas ...

Speaking of the Dalai Lama & Tibet, I followed a link at the World Puja site and found this place -

Voices of Compassion which has details of a CD the Dalai Lama has been involved in creating. The proceeds seems to be going to some worthwhile places.

Hey, only a few messages to go until number '56789' - one wonders who will it be? :)

Peggy--I don't know--who? :-) As I have said before--tho I keep talking about it, politics is not my bag :-)I have long felt that there is much that goes on that is kept secret--and I am okay with that. As always for me, balance is key--too many secrets and we're not a republic, no secrets and we are too "bulky" to be effective--not to mention that I don't want to have to be making political decisions all the time...I am sooo sleepy! Bye!

C

Chris -- Have a great trip, and we'll try to remember to wave at all planes flying over.

I'm going to be taking a sabbatical from the Forum for a few weeks. I'll be traveling for the holidays. I'm off to Albuquerque tomorrow and will be flying to Virginia next Wednesday. Peggy and Dave, I'll wave from the plane as we fly over Tennessee. I wish everyone the happiest of holidays. Take care of one another while I'm gone. I may pop in from time to time depending on access to the Internet and time so you better be nice! :-)

Cathy, who gets to decide what the people should know and what should be kept from them?

Dave-I understand your desire for truth...but I still disagree that now is the time to go digging--namely because it won't change who the president is and will only hinder his administration--apparently, and now gladly common knowledge--too many votes have been lost every election for who knows how long? For me, even if the Florida recount went Gore's way, there is the thing that the whole nation's votes could/should be recounted to include ballots that the machines messed up to really know who "should" have won. My view is that this election was pretty standard in ballots tossed etc...and it only became an issue because it was so tight in FLA there at the end...I think all the things that came to light because of all the hoopla that resulted are things to be grateful for and to correct for next time. As Chris' article link said Bush and Gore are the same anyway ;-) I don't think my desire for truth is as strong as yours regarding political matters :-) When you said "their" president--it seemed implied that you felt that possibly the republicans had doctored things somehow? Now if that's the case, that's a whole different ballgame in my mind--anyway, know what? I'm getting tired of talking about this as I type! Maybe I have ADD ;-)So I'll stop here, though maybe I've left things incomplete :-)

Re ADD, it is certainly a BIG advantage to Home-ed to allow your child freedom to learn in the style that is most natural to them and to allow a lot of movement in the day. You guys ever heard of John Gatto? He was a teacher of the year in NY who has since written books against our general mode of education--one of his more famous books is called "Dumbing us Down"--I've never actually read his books. He's a bit radical for me, though he makes many good points. Did you all realize that schooling wasn't mandatory until about 150 years ago in the US--seems like our founding fathers did pretty good without enforced learning (or more accurately perhaps institutionalized styleof learning) :-)

Geoff--thanks for the links--the Dalai Lama interview looks good! I bookmarked it for later...

Goodnight all!

Cathy

Geoff, you have wise words about disarming the warheads. I'm also pulling in my welcome mat, taking down the signs that say "THIS WAY TO PEGGY'S HOUSE." :-)

Tom! That's the song! Thanks! I may even have the Redbone recording somewhere. I think my teacher, who didn't have much of a grasp on geography, used to make us do the hula while we sang it.

Brad, do me a favor. On a clear night, go outside and find the Southern Cross and think of me. Say my name. I'm pretty sure by now that I will never get to see it in this lifetime.

The first Austrailian film that I can remember is My Brilliant Career. I'm sure there were others that I saw before that...I just didn't notice that they were Austrailian. Judy Davis is one of my favorites. I shared this particular film with Kate the last time she came to visit.

Eyore, do you think that certain character traits are more common in certain cultures? If so, can you give an example?

I don't know what Deepak Chopra's involvement with charity was or is. I'm more concerned with what I am doing or not doing for others. I have only myself to account for. From time to time, I do stick pins in people who do nothing for others using the excuse that things are as they should be. Thank goodness that neither Mother Teresa or Gandhi believed that! But even if it were true, if we try to alleviate suffering and are successful, then that would be as it should be too. So, if given a choice, I had rather err on the side of being kind.

By the way, I rewatched the film Gandhi last night as promised. Still in awe...

Brad, so let me get this straight...If you and your friends want to insult each other by implying that the other person is a weakling, you use a word which is a synonym for "woman"? Tsk! Tsk! Switches and ashes in your stocking on Christmas Day!

Since I retired after going crazy teaching, I have had frequent dreams that I am back in school. Once I dreamed that to get from the front of the building to my classroom (quite a distance), I had to hitch a ride on the tail of a kangeroo. True dream. Doesn't say much for my career, does it?

I'm glad that you were being serious, Brad, and not trying to be funny. That's because I wasn't laughing at your wit. I was laughing at you.

Snort!

D2, you won't get any argument from me! One teacher that I know was pretty much practicing medicine without a license in counselling parents about their children and ADD/ADHD.

But what do you do if you have twenty-nine students working reasonable and other student literally begin pole-vaulting around the room? Sure there is concern for the pole-vaulter but the teacher also has to consider the welfare of the other kids.

We used to joke in the faculty lounge about putting tranquilizers in the kiddies' Christmas cookies on the last day before the holidays. I hate to think of the real abuse that's going on.

Goodnight, Gracie.

Do I dare admit I do remember that song? All that came to mind with Pal Joey and kangaroos was pouches under Sinatra's eyes. Say good night, Gracie.

Kate -- I wonder if Pal Joey had anything to do with kangaroos. Remember that old broadway show tune that started out "Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joe, you've been too long in one town..."?

ROFLMAO--seriously! Wanna dance? We'll change the steps to the bunny hop and invent the Kangaroo Hop. Perfect for New Year's Eve!

Brad -- I have seen at least one website where contributors submit real names from phone directories that are, shall we say, unusual. Many have sexually explicit or scatological connotations, but there are some that just sound funny. What's the weirdest name you know of that's not too tasteless to say here?

I heard of a person named T. Holygotham Temblance.

I meant 'what abotu Effram' etc. Gotta go. The times rackin' up and the cricket's on TV. The WIndies are actually making a fight of it.

Dave, on the funny name theme. One of my friends. Brett of the Red Lion on Bleacker St fame, was involved in a Caberet act called The Castanets. His name was Wendy Grainfish. What Effram Zimbalist Jr. He had to be kidding.

Brad -- I concur with your review of D2's post. Well said. Also, in this same vein, I'd like to say that to's posts have been quite clear and direct lately.

Could be Dave.

Brad -- Perhaps the secret, then, is to take yourself "too seriously"?

Geoff spot on quote. I have believed this for many years. It’s tough though. It is said that a truly calm man/woman/person/female kangaroo can always avoid violence. Love the pussy cat.

D2 that was one of the best posts I’ve read in a while. Next to Kate’s female kangaroos offcourse. I’m no expert but it seemed well reasoned and intelligent. Hope that’s not patronising.

Kate I am in the emergency room at the moment because my arse has fallen off. I can’t stop laughing and the doctor believes that a positive attitude will help my adjustment to my disability. He says I will walk again but it will be more of a hop, reminiscent of a female Kangaroo. Often referred to, in this country, as a chick.

Peggy in the real world ‘female Kangaroos’ go by the technical term ‘Female Kangaroo.” From the Greek: “female” meaning Sheila and “Kangaroo” meaning Kangarooesque. Can you believe the spell check accepted Kangarooesque? Oh no it didn’t. The word Sheila is, I think, an Irish girls’ name and I dare say it was a popular one at that so I guess it just followed that it was picked up as a generic term for a female. It’s has been somewhat poo pooed thanks to the efforts of a one Ms Greer as a derogatory term. My friends and I often use it in an ironic parody and we refer to each other as sheilas quite often. I often refer to myself as a ‘big Sheila’ meaning woose or sissy. Offcourse this is ‘friend-circle-specific’ and I often have to explain myself when I used it with the general populous. While I agree that it is often used as in a derogatory sense I still lament the demise of quaint colloquialisms due to political correctness. Which I see as another form of censorship and a kind of leftist McCarthyism.

Yes, if you know anyone who would be willing to pay for my drivel then I would love to write comedy. The irony is that I’m actually trying to be serious.

Terry -- Thanks for that extension of my comments! Yes, I should have made that same point that the "implicate order" where our lives really are lived is not one we can access directly, but have to get at in ways that defy our senses and our minds working alone. This much I'm finally beginning to understand, thanks to all the input from people here, especially you, TO.

Happy shopping everyone.........have a beautiful weekend.

Namaste'........Dick

Although not "proved" yet by science, statistics are mounting that in the young, TV is THE major source of ADD due to their little minds being pounded by the noise and flipping from one scene to another, a constant barrage of different focus.

The other day I asked how the ADD Sangha was doing, and in a way I was being facetious, and yet not.

As adults (and the age) we've learned how to focus our minds, to take control of our minds, for the most part. Children don't have that control yet.

That is why I say that adults have the same problem at times, causing stress.

Thanks D2, as you're involved in proving the point that as they get to a certain age, the "method" for them to learn and grasp concepts will have a lot to do with their prior "programming", subtle as it is.

Dave what you said a little earlier is very true as far as it goes..........yes:
"My own perspective on these levels of experience, and where "reality" lies, is that until and unless we can translate these other levels of reality into the level where we spend most of our time, they are essentially no more relevant than occasional haircuts. Even if the everyday is inferior in some way, it is where we live most of the time. And unless the ways we behave and function in the everyday level of reality can be effectively modified by those excursions (by whatever means) into other levels, we're doing little more than imagining that an occasional party can really effect significant changes in our daily lives. "

Where a person is coming from inside isn't really perceptual when it comes to their physical manifestation. It can be implicit though.

On Sunday, December 20, 1998, Tom G. mailto:photog03@sprynet.com@199.174.247.52 said:

Christmas Island
L. Moraine

How'd you like to spend Christmas,
On Christmas Island
How'd you like to spend a holiday
Away across the sea
How'd you like to spend Christmas,
On Christmas Island
Howd' you like to hang your stocking
On a great big coconut tree

How's you like to stay up late,
Like the islanders do
Wait for Santa to sail in with
Your presents in a canoe

If you ever spend Christmas,
On Christmas Island,
You will never stray, for every day
Your Christmas dreams come true

As sung by Leon Redbone

MR Dick -- How perceptive of you! MAD was a favorite in my high school days and I still remember some of the bits from that old mag. And yes, those names were probably based to some extent on my fascination with the names in MAD.

Mike Nichols and Elaine May had lots of crazy names in their bits, too. And Steve Martin wasn't above looking for odd ones.

One of MAD's things I loved was where they had names that matched up with jobs, like Rex Karz, parking lot attendant and Ann S. Thesia, operating room nurse.

"To have consciousness of abundance on a soul level does not mean having a sense of access to many things, seemingly stored in some treasure house, but rather being at one with the Essence behind and within all things. True abundance is a consciousness of wholeness, oneness and quality, not of separateness, multiplicity and quantity.

David Spangler "The Laws of Manifestation"

"Often people attempt to live their lives backwards: They try to have more things, or more money, in order to do more of what they want, so they will be happier.

The way it actually works is the reverse. You must first be who you really are, then, do what you need to do, in order to have what you want."

Margaret Young

When the Buddha said, "Do not pursue the past," he was telling us not to be overwhelmed by the past. He did not mean that we should stop looking at the past in order to observe it deeply. When we review the past and observe it deeply, if we are standing firmly in the present, we are not overwhelmed by it. The materials of the past which make up the present become clear when they express themselves in the present. We can learn from them. If we observe these materials deeply, we can arrive at a new understanding of them. That is called "looking again at something old in order to learn something new."

If we know that the past also lies in the present, we understand that we are able to change the past by transforming the present. The ghosts of the past, which follow us into the present, also belong to the present moment. To observe them deeply, recognize their nature, and transform them, is to transform the past.

- Our Appointment with Life by Thich Nhat Hanh

from Buddhist quote of the moment

Peggy, I just re-read your post about twisting other people's words. It reminded me of an interview I read where the Dalai Lama spoke about 'inner disarmament' . I personally have found this a very useful concept. The state of the 'outer' world is a reflection of the 'inner' world. There's not much I can do to control the behaviour of others in 'pushing my buttons' but i can work on disarming the warheads. (The warheads being anger, hostility, judgement, smugness, sarcasm, pride, whatever). The Daily Lama said it was pointless to talk of nuclear disarmament until people worked on this inner disarmament.

I hope this is of some benefit to those who read it. I find it a useful subject for contemplation. The interview can be found here.

DaveR thanks for the explanation on those funky names. You didn't write for MAD magazine did you? Sounds like some of their characters.

The "MR" stands for most recent. And we all know that's all that really counts right! You're only as good as your last game. Hahahaha

Peggy, I can't post using that IP address anymore. They shut it down without notice. Best I could do is challenge any imitators to post using that old number. I use several free ISP's each of which have several access numbers. If you are at all familiar with free ISP's, you know they come and go quickly, but I'll try to stay consistent when I post so as not to entice too many fake skeps (as flattering as that is).
Also, I know how nervous it makes Hadi when he can't keep track of people : )

Having said that...

I honor the place in you where skepticism resides.
I honor the place in you where lies your questioning nature
in the search for truth.
I honor the place in you, where...
if you are in that place in you...
and I am in that place in me...
then there is only one cosmic skeptic.
Namaste

(and I kinda like MR Dick, has an air of sophistication don't you think?)

Wonderful post, and I'm glad you got wound up! I neither advocate nor denigrate the use of drugs because I think they work in some cases, not in others. I do worry about the massive doses of amoxycillin given to my grandkids for earaches. I've definitely heard that Ritalin can have the opposite effect on some than that for which it's prescribed. I've seen kids misunderstood, pigeon-holed, and saw them live down to the expectations! But talking to people about spending more money for more teachers, more aides, lower classroom sizes, more individual attention, and so on has seemed futile in a financially-oriented system. Damn! You got me onto a soapbox, too.

Your explanation of the differences in auditory and visually oriented people reminds me of how my younger daughter struggled through some things in school, then studied in England one year during college and loved it, flourished under a non-lecture environment. Different strokes for different folks isn't far off the mark. One nephew is like the young man you describe and certain family members thought he was "slow" for years. Not! Kudoes to you for working with him, and for realizing it's still a long road. Don't get discouraged!

Peggy--- Something else, did Chopra start with acts of charity in India?

D2--- I also noticed that Hadi didn't respond to my questions as to whether at one time he was Muslim or Zoarastrian. Peggy--- To answer you question from earlier, it may well be important as to where a person is from in the grand scheme of things. Because it is where we are from, the culture, religion, political environment, etc. that forms are characters; even when there is rebellion against the culture, religion or what have you. About what you said about Mum Tereasa's visit with Thatcher I can only say it is a good thing. No? I agree that we should administer to the poor wherever. Tereasa once said to do acts of charity start with your own community. Good advice for the simple mojoe who is living in London on about his reality and in his own western bubble I guess.

Many believe that ADD children are also the so-called - 'New Age Children'. There is a lovely book just released here in Dutch called Nieuwetijds Kinderen (Children of the New Time). When it is translated into English it will be a big seller because it talks about what these children really focus on.

Frank, you raise a good point and a controversial one especially when the topic of medication comes up in this room (Nope Pegs, keep em where they are, you're doing fine !) ;-)

I worked with a kid (17) who was labelled ADD and placed on Ritalin. I have always wondered why the medical establishemnt chose that term, attention deficit. It seems to me if you really had an attention deficit you would die.

What the real problem is these kids are focussing on 'stuff' other than what the school system wants them to be focussed on. So they get this insidious drug called Ritalin prescribed (I read that 23% of the high school students in CA are on it) to space them out and 'calm them down'. The problem is the kids are smart enough to figure out what the deal is and they get really, really angry and act up so then it is time for more drugs and the cycle continues.

Pat asked a few weeks back if our work was available stateside. Not as yet, but what we do do is listen to the problem presented and try and figure out who is really the subject here, the parent or the student ?

So when somebody says a kid is attention deficit, we first ask the kid what it is they are good at doing. Turns out this kid could take a tractor engine completely apart and put it back together again (with all the pieces in the right places). Now I think that is pretty cool because I could never do that.

The 'problem' is the parents and teachers think this kid should be on HAVO track (too complicated to explain just call it college prep course) and should be headed to Leiden University and become a doctor of this or that. The kid is 17 and has not one clue what he wants to do. The irony is that neither did his parents but they went to night school, worked, worked, worked for him and now he is 'ungrateful' (see where this is heading ?) and not living up to potential and is doped up most of the time and pissed off.

So I taught him some concentration techniques to get his grades up so we could get him off the drugs (successful after 90 days) and then we focussed on the real issue, family expectations and claiming/living in his own brilliance. Bottom line, it is a long road for all of them.

My understanding of Ritalin and its connection to the school system is really insidious. See, the school never comes out and says your kid should be on Ritalin, instead they give the parents a video (made by the drug manufacturer) then the confused parents sit down with their house (family) doctor and the doctor says, 'well if the school says he should be on it here is the prescription...'

Most of the attention issues come from mis-matched representational systems. Kids have a different primary system and therefore look in the 'wrong' place in their mind to find the answer to questions. They then get frustrated because school is almost 90% auditory in nature. What happens if you have a visual or kinesthetic (primary system) kid ? There is nothing to support their preferred method of learning in a lecture based (auditory world). If you ask a kid to spell a certain word and they use eye patterns that indicate they are trying to do a kinesthetic recall when they should be in visual recall or reconstruct, they get frustrated when they cannot find it and will never learn to spell or visualize anything as complex as multiplication tables or remember King Arthur and the round table because nobody is looking for this stuff. Instead they try to be King Arthur and get whacked for it.

So because the kid dose not understand how to play by the rules, he/she is labelled and put on drugs that are so unecessary most of the time. They then either become enraged or victims. Not a pleasant picture for the future but this is what schools do.

Now there a couple of ex-teachers here who will disagree (quite vehemently in the past). I used to be a defeatist and my nephew lives in a group home at age 19 because he spent the last 10 years in his fantasy Ritalin world. He has such amazing creative talents that, if nurtured could do wonders. Instead everyone tells him to 'get real' and he thinks his world is real. We hope to get him here next summer and do further work in this area.

If you are a hammer, then everything in the world is a nail. Drugs are not always the answer in these cases. Changing our view is. I recognize that in classes of 35 students or more it not possible to do this sort of work. Do you think it will get better with the new President-Select ? I love that term Pegs.

Wow, I got all wound up on that one, sorry gang, but it really pisses me off when the system looks for the easy way out.

D2--- Thanks for the warning a while back about opening a Pandora's box on that region of the world with Hadi. I can see where you're coming from ha ha. No offence meant Hadi. ...But he didn't not touch on the topic. It was fairly trivial.

Frank -- Your comments and quoted material on ADD were helpful to me. So far as I know, nobody I have had many dealings with has had to deal with ADD -- beyond yourself. For me, the evidence I have seen of you here wouldn't lead me to think it is in any way a disorder! If it is, I just wish more people had it!

The ability you have to take an idea and jump all sorts of places with it, as in our "word jazz" pranking around, far outstrips most other people's I have had much contact with.

There are many things I have to try to focus on, including reading. My mind wanders or gets stuck on a sentence or even a phrase, and I will often reread the same passage several times until what's there finally attaches to my thoughts. The one thing that has assisted me in reading is reading aloud to Peggy. That way I don't permit myself to bog down, and somehow the dynamics of reading for expression and intonation assist me in understanding more quickly. If you haven't tried that method, give it a whirl. Who knows? You might like it.

Hello good people of the forum. Nice to see Hadi and to again.

Someone had posted awhile back (I think it was Terry) a reference to Attention Deficit Disorder. I think it is agreed that this disorder is very difficult to diagnose, and therefore there are differing views on whether or not it is a legitimate condition.

I believe that a wide amount of people in North America (and likely elsewhere) fall under this classification. I include myself in this group as I often have a hard time staying focused on a particular thing or a standardized way of doing something.

I was pleased to read a chapter related to this "disorder" in Ellen J. Langer's the Power of Mindful Learning , where she suggests that it is perhaps more useful to view what is often called "distraction" as being "otherwise-attracted". She suggests that having a moving picture of something in mind is more natural and normal than trying to force a "fixed" picture of something.

She further suggests that people who have trouble staying focused on a particular subject, for example, can alter their "novelty level" (useful in maintaining attention) by shifting their way of perceiving the information being provided in their heads. That is to say.. by actively adjusting the information being received, the novelty of the information will be fresh and therefore the attention level may be maintained. To view things as conditional rather than a stone cold fact is a method which keeps the mind attended, she further suggests. The mind is therefore looking at a more dynamic subject.

Hope others find this information as useful as I did. Does anyone have anything to add on the subject of ADD? I am most interested in functional ways of approaching it; positive adaptations like the view presented above.

Namaste'

Carol, the last time I heard from Bob, he told me that it had been quite a while since he had written anything. I sincerely hope that something will spark the creative juices into flowing once again.

Kereyra -- The use of these highly specialized terms out of context can be very upsetting if you don't have the supporting text to understand them. That's been one of my sore points with a lot of the terminology that appears here. If all we know is the word, and not the idea, it's hard to convince others that there's more going on than jargon and code words.

As I'm trying to relate to the "implicate order" notion, it is that whatever force or system or construct is underneath or behind the way we think and perceive and relate to the things around us that we can verify with our senses and intellects, is the source for those perceptions and understandings.

We all are convinced of some levels of reality by way of experiences. Some of those experiences are vicarious, by way of books and movies and other external influences from other people and their experiences, either real or imagined. Some of those experiences are chemically induced. Still others, it has been said, can come through meditation.

My own perspective on these levels of experience, and where "reality" lies, is that until and unless we can translate these other levels of reality into the level where we spend most of our time, they are essentially no more relevant than occasional haircuts. Even if the everyday is inferior in some way, it is where we live most of the time. And unless the ways we behave and function in the everyday level of reality can be effectively modified by those excursions (by whatever means) into other levels, we're doing little more than imagining that an occasional party can really effect significant changes in our daily lives.

Just my opinion, but one I'm finding difficulty in wanting to change.

The heartless woman cares more about spinach........

No, 'twas I who suddenly felt that I shouldn't go on a hunch, i.e., that I think female kangaroos are called sheilas. I didn't want to say it, have Brad laughing his a** off, and all that. Of course, I've been laughing at *his* last post, too, so maybe turn about would be OK.

Dave, thank you for further explanation. Everything is so much clearer today. Must be the fact that my stomach is pretty much empty. Anyway, I think I understand but still need time to phrase it in my own words.

I have not had time to read all the posts. We go on our Xmas break today and things are pretty hectic. I'll try to catch up before we go out of town.

Kate, LOL!!! Have I made a terrible faux pas? Is there spinach between my front teeth? Are you and DaveR running off to Ireland together? Should I not have asked about "Sheila"? (Sure hope it's not the spinach!)

Chris, it is so cool to see you coming from a place of such satisfaction and contentment. When that break-through is made, everything fits together, doesn't it?

I, too, noticed Hadi's apology and I think that it was a good sign that Hadi has been doing some thinking.

I don't think that I necessarily want to change Hadi. But I cared enough about him to let him know why, in my opinion, he was putting people off. At some point I realized that I had never received from him the same respect that I had offered during the early years. He seemed to trivialize my opinions and experiences. He often didn't bother to answer my questions. For whatever reason, he didn't seem to grasp my posts. (The hypothetical of the Germaine Greer comment is an example.)

There are times when he is utterly charming and brilliant. But that's not enough for a friendship. Reciprocity and respect are a bottom line for me. If Hadi chooses not to go in that direction, that is his choice.

You and I, Chris, have worked through a lot of stuff and let some other things slide. We've learned from each other, I think.

Uh, Peg, I hate to tell you this. So I'll check it first.

Brad, you really do just break me up! Your most recent comments are so funny! Ever consider writing comedy? Your Santa Claus story was a jewel too! It interests me that your Santa has all of the trappings of a Northern Santa. I expected something that could be better associated with summer.

We used to sing a song as kids that began, "How'd you like to spend Christmas on Christmas Island?" I think the setting was somewhere around Austrailia.

I once had an Austrailian boyfriend. He used to wash his hands in the "bison" in the bathroom.

Any idea of the origin of the use of "Sheila" for a girl?

Most Recent Dick Skep:

Sorry, M.R. Dick. I just won't believe that you are the Real Dick until you use your old IP# and confirm that it was you. I'll just remain skeptical until then.

A meth lab in an apartment complex here exploded a year or so ago. I'm not at all sure the national efforts have accomplished as much as can be done on a local level. I appreciate your links, Tom, will look at them over lunchtime here.

Thanks. I saw another link on the page for which I gave the URL, this one on meth. Think I was confused when I saw the chemical name for Ecstasy and I believe it began with "methyl...." also. I'll get back in a bit.

Kate (and Terry): Ecstacy (MDMA) and Meth are two different chemicals. From what I understand, Ecstasy contains Mescaline in the mixture, so is more of a hallucinagenic than a stimulant, though it has stimulant effects.

Here are a couple of links I just found (but haven't pursued in depth) that may explain in more detail:

Ecstacy Meth

I know no one personally who has used Ecstacy, but have had experience with how Meth affects one's life.

Meth is a truly dangerous drug. At first, it makse a person feel like Superman, but it soon causes deviant and dangerous psychotic behavior. About 6 years ago, an undercover policeman killed two of his peers with machine pistols as he was caught stealing from the evidence locker to maintain his habit. Another case in Arizona was where a father decapitated his young son because the son was "possesed by the devil." I've also seen how it almost destroyed the lives of a family member and that of a coworker and his family.

Now, in my opinion, the popularity of chemicals like Meth is due to out government's "War On Drugs." Since it is innate in the human behaviour to change one's consciousness (read Andrew Weil's From Chocolate to Morphine) If one technique is banned, another one is found to take its place. So because of the prohibition of a natural herb, marijuana, which usually makes a user peaceful, it's been replaced with more dangerous drugs. Pot is bulky and difficult to hide from drug sniffing dogs. Where chemicals like meth can be created by your average high school chemist in a kitchen or workshop, given the proper supplies. Though there is the risk of explosions and poisioning, the profit incentive is greater with something that can be created more locally and in less space than it does to grow a crop of marijuana.

Another problem is the wide acceptance of drug screening by employers. Depending on a person's metabolism, the evidence of one session of pot usage can remain in a body for over a month. Drugs like Ecstasy and meth leave the body after two or three days.

Cathy -- The reason I want to know the truth behind those votes -- not just in Florida but in all states where there may have been misreadings -- is that I prefer truth over hype. If we are going to support the efforts of a president in uniting the country, I want to be sure he's really our president and not their president.

This may not be the beginnings of a new Watergate, I desperately hope not, but if there's anything behind all the tactics being used to block voting recounts and the transparent stalling by the Supreme Court, I would hope that knowing that could lead to more informed decisions about where improvements are needed.

I've heard enough people ("experts" and people on the street alike) express the views that our Constitution and some of our Federal laws need serious overhauling to bring them into the 21st century, that I would hope we would operate from a clear statement of facts than on supposition and spin.

"posts/comments----thank you" was for Kate. Sorry about that.

Dave--I hope I didn't give the impression that I felt we shouldn't make changes in the voting process by my post about not counting the votes? The reason I don't think we should count them is because it makes no difference now--we have a president and if the count shows he "shouldn't" be there--what purpose would it serve at this late date other than to make his already hard job harder? But DEFINITELY changes should be made--I don't think either party wants to let things slide--it was too costly for both of them! Re the machines--yes, I agree they should be replaced--but obviously they've been messing up before this year--and I still think that the machine error statistically should be nondiscriminatory. If hand counts were standard as they are for you guys, Brad, I could abide by them. (didn't mean to offend your mother :-)) But in this case there would have been sooooo much pressure and it was soooo close--I think most people would have wondered about the honesty of the counters whichever way it went.

Anywho, we're going on a Polar Express train ride in the Smokey Mountains today--should be fun!Gotta go!

Cathy

Namaste'

Hi ya'll. I'm 90 posts back, and maybe I'll get caught up this morning.

Got as far as your post/comments to me, and of course thank you.

I look at our city here as a microcosm of the country. Population 280m, and I'm in the middle of the "pulse" of what's going on.

My view isn't jaded.

5 more shot today.

Just like what I tried to do about 10 years ago with what I saw coming, although "we've" woke up a little, it's the same ole bandaid approach so far.

I'm reminded of "You can pay me now, or pay me later".

Have a great day.

Thanks Annie! Now I remember Bob V and his talking to the wind. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

Thanks Dave! I'm glad to hear you are all for building bridges. Expressing your sore points in the attempt to clear the air and get complete with a person is a healthy thing. I hope that Hadi can read this motivation in your posts to him. My taking responsibility for how I was contributing to my dynamic with Hadi was how I was able to shift from the ego battle I was waging with him (remember some of those?) to a place of unconditional acceptance of who he is "warts" and all. This doesn't mean that I still don't have opinions about some of the things he says, I just don't value those opinions as much as I value a peaceful and illuminating relationship with him. That's just me though. You need to work things out in a way that works for you. Carpe Diem!

Here's a news story, today's Yahoo: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001214/hl/drug_study_1.html

It's my understanding that Ecstasy=meth. This reports usage from a poll at "over 8% of h.s. seniors," but that is a dramatic increase. Other drug use appears to be down. At least we know someone is giving the government, schools, parents, and others concerned the information. We should all be able to use the information at local levels to keep abreast of the problem.

Chris -- Excellent! Well done, and well said. I'm all for building those very bridges. I would love to have Hadi back to the level of participation and sensitivity he had in earlier times. And that apology of his didn't escape my attention and appreciation. That was a good thing, and I thank you, Chris, for emphasizing it!

The post I just now put up (I was typing it while your post was going up -- how often does that happen!) was to express another sore point in my relationship with Hadi. I'm in hopes that he can help me over some of the discomfort I'm having in that area, too.

Chris, I've said it before, but it bears repeating: I really like the person you've allowed yourself to see and be. My hat is off to you!

Hadi -- You said, "To be frank, Dave, I don't have the time that you have to get into conversational dialogues. I am no longer living the life of leasure which permitted such marathon indulgences in Mexico. Whenever that's been the case I compose off-line and post in one shot to save time and money. Internet Services and phone calls are not free here. Not mine anyway. In any case, that's my style."

Is this your way of responding to my comment about your not reading here? Or is it your justification for providing this forum with your judgment about how things are proceeding here and what the proper interpretations are?

I will admit that when you make blanket statements about how "tedious" or "in a shambles" the forum has become in your absence, especially if I have been one of the ones contributing significant numbers of posts, that I automatically assume you're casting aspersions in my direction. I see it basically as a "cheap shot" on your part.

And when you post one of your themes or treatises on some subject, spending perhaps an hour to unload your ruminations on some issue, are we just to accept your words as if they were scripture?

Unlike you, I have plenty of spare time these days to devote a large part of my attention to what's going on here. I'm now where you were in Mexico, with time to fill. So I will be paying closer attention to what's said here -- by all who are posting these days -- and responding accordingly.

If your comments in the quoted passage mean that your role has shifted from director of traffic here to casual and infrequent observer, it would appear to me to be more in keeping with those facts if you would refrain from trying to give the impression that you're really involved in all that's being discussed. It would be quite a simple thing to say that you had only read one or two posts, and that you hadn't taken time to consider even those, rather than to assume you already knew everything any of us could have possibly said in your absence.

In short, I think your comments about the shoody state of the forum were petty and meant to hurt. If you are able to explain those remarks you've made by being more specific, pointing to what gave you that impression, perhaps I could feel less singled out. But until that time, I will continue to see your belittling words as just that.

Bridges instead of barriers.

On Thursday, December 14, 2000, DaveR ()@209.86.50.213 said:

…When I said that because of your apparent unwillingness to apologize, or admit your errors in dealing with others here…

On Thursday, December 14, 2000, Hadi (here@now)@212.67.100.152 said:

Thank you for the apology and sorry for my defensiveness regarding your suggestion about being a little more conversational. I could have worded that more diplomatically too.

Brad -- Excellent analysis of the "news" marketing ploy. That idea squares with what I know and what I suspect -- for the most part. It is predominantly a sales concept and advertisers do control that market very much, just as the same entities control our government and much of the world's economy. Maybe we could spend some speculation time here deciding the best way we as citizens of the planet can combat that influence.

Dick -- The names have been a hobby most of my life. I have dozens on tap and just selected the most ridiculous ones to post under. One that I particularly like, and have used in a little "tandem writing" exercise with a friend, is Deke Harble. Anytime you need a fun name for whatever purpose, check in with a request and I can surely give you a few options. By the way, your e-mail address is different, too.

Bob -- The book has quite a few good points to consider. Some of the evidence offered would need to be confirmed with other reading on those subjects before I would begin to believe any of it, but it does make for some good reading and for some fun speculation. The main difficulty I have with any of these explanations of what's going on in the parts of the universe where I can't do my own verification, is that when raw data are presented, and then a conclusion, I can at least try to see if the conclusion matches the data to any degree, and if it does I'm willing to hold on to that explanation until another conclusion is presented that makes better sense. But when all I get is the conclusion, it's basically science fiction and pleasant reading and I don't strain to accept that conclusion. Those sorts of things are good in Trivial Pursuit and Jeopardy!, but have little direct influence on my own assessment of reality. If it doesn't fit, I won't submit, to paraphrase a master of legal legerdemain.

Hadi -- Painful as it might be, read Dick's comments to you about listening and adjusting. If you could show a little bit of internalization of some of the principles you have been expounding on for these past few years here, it would be easier for me to avoid negative reactions to your approach. It's when you preach one thing and live another that I start feeling I should comment on your effects. But, as you have stressed and others have reinforced, that is surely your choice to make and you can resist all input as long as its best for you to do so.

For those commenting on voting reform -- I am squarely in the middle on this issue. I feel that all votes should have been counted, in every state, and that they still should be, so we'll know the facts, just as I want to know how deeply the Mob and the Government were involved in the assassination of Jack, Martin, and Bobby (to name a famous few). But I do see the need for some strict principles for evaluating those ballots that weren't clearly marked. Too many gotchas are involved for uncontrolled counting/recounting. My suggestion would be to recruit a sufficient force of people who either didn't vote at all, or else voted for one of the other candidates, to do the counting/recounting. At least their findings would be closer to neutral, and thus more acceptable to the general public, even though both major parties' faithful would still bitch and moan at the results.

I, for one, have not been persuaded to just let it slide because of some nice speeches. Those things are designed to lull us into complacency and to allow the same sort of blatant injustice to continue. Now, while it's fresh on our minds, I believe we need to concentrate on fixing a totally screwed up system of voting, elections, government and news media. The longer we are content to return to "business as usual" and keep chanting "all is as it should be" the longer it will stay "usual" and "same old same old." I can only conclude that "all is as it should be" when things are going swimmingly for the ones uttering those words. I'm willing to bet that when things start turning the other way for those willing to toss out these little platitudes, that they will be moaning and crying about injustice and conspiracy and how the Universe is out to get them. Mark my words.

hi Brad, thanks for the vote counting input, from your mom. and yes, we have a bigger room but i hope we DO something about this mess. i sure don't want to go thru another election like this.

a lot to absorb......

i'm sure you could care less, about now, Peggy, but i agree 100% about what you said about the voting machines and i am sure that the votes will be counted, whether we like it or not.

Annie, when you say Bob(VSpen) has quit writing, do you mean altogether, or just here?

a lot more time, Bob F, heh!

Dick I said ergo not ego.

Well, skipping through the posts very quickly, this is what I picked up.

Peggy you are a lesbian and you’re living with Germain Greere? Well I’m honoured that you had the courage to use this forum to ‘come out’. God loves you. Go Girl!

DaveR how dare that bitch do that to you. But man, once they jump that fence they never jump back and you know you can’t compete with another woman. Now what was that stuff about Bill Clinton?

My mother is very angry about the insinuation that ‘hand counting’ is fraught with danger. She worked in an electoral office for years and we still have hand counts in this country. Mind you we can almost all fit in the one room so that makes it easier.

On masks and stuff. An old acting teacher once told me that we spend our lives trying to be someone else and every now and then we screw up and make fools of ourselves. It is at moment that we screw up that we are truly ourselves.

The News. Let me explode a few myths. Newspapers, and TV News programs have very little to do with NEWS. Very few papers if any make substantial profits from the sale of News papers and offcourse TV stations are apparently just giving it away.

They are actually selling a product and it’s not advertising. It’s you and me. They are selling you and I to potential advertisers. You see they are producing their papers/programs to target very specific demographics. They are not even after the majority, necessarily. What they do is carry out ratings surveys that confirm their target audience and use that to sell us to the advertisers. The demographic varies depending on the format. Peggy, sorry for the generalisations I’m about to make. A tabloid paper such as those in Britain will target the less educated (left and right at the same time) working class. A broadsheet, which will be much more textual will target the more educated affluent. Hence the BMW ads etc. This all dictates the format of the paper/program. So this is one way that our perception, ergo our reality is shaped by our economic system. That is for those of us who live in Capitalist economies. I prefer to live in a society.

Thanks for the dolphin Geoff.

I think 'we' as a society have a tendency to see the symtom and mistake it for the illness.

Hadi, how many more friends will become ex-friends before you listen AND TAKE CORRECTIVE ACTION with the way you come across (aggressive, arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all, etc)?? At least you are keeping the people who write email blocking software busy.

Your post claiming that people are somehow replicating themselves in order to fabricate support for their opinions demonstrates your own paranoia. You also admit you are uncomfortable not knowing if you are dealing with the same person. Now THAT'S what I call "essentially operating from a position of FEAR."!! Hey, I know, why don't you just treat everyone the same and drop all of your prejudices. Then you won't care who is who.

Garmish Freen? Varzel Screed? Gyte Poon?!? Those are hilarious DaveR! Where the hell did you get those?

Yes, I know I changed IP's again. Don't be afraid Hadi. You're still dealing with the same person. Oh, and last thing, please add "mask" to that list of words that I find infinitely tedious...also DaveR's "mirror" and "projection" are snoozers I agree.

Glad you enjoyed/are enjoying the GRA site--and thanks for posting the link :-) Funny coincidence about the initials...have a GRAte night ;-)

Cathy

Hadi - I saw your acknowledgement and it was nice but not necessary, just wanted to welcome you back.

Dave R - I see you are really getting into "The Holographic Universe". We may make a believer out of you yet. :-)

Chris V. - Looking forward to Sunday.

Carol - Both of us have found more "time" with the election civics lesson over - we may get our offices done yet.

Denis - Agree on all points, seems we see the world from the same point of view.

TO - Hello for hellos sake. Sorry about the murder scenario. In the early 70s, my wife was a Parole Officer and had a nut case who kept threatening suicide. He was in psychiatric therapy but kept crying the blues to her. He called one weekend while we were having a major party and he threatened suicide for the umteenth time - Sandy said go ahead and do it. He did. Took her a while to get over it but I kept telling her it wasn't her fault. Nor are the murders in your case - all is as it should be. :-)

Namasté

Sorry Chris, I forgot to mention. If you check out the link Geoff included with his post it will take you to all of Bob's work. Some very good reading out there. At least I think it is. :)

Chris, I just saw your post where you asked Geoff if he was the author of The Madman series. Bob (VSpen), who used to post here at the Forum some time ago, is the author. I wish he was still writing.

If you'll excuse me. It's 3.45 a.m. here. I don't know what I'm doing up at this hour. I must be out of my mind. Goodnight.

Hadi maybe Dave will, and maybe Dave won't. Either way Dave is going to be Dave and you are going to be you, and that's all just varying degrees of perfection expressed. Moonlight is moonlight even if the water is choppy. :-)

My shift in perception has been quite profound indeed. I "got it" all intellectually for years, but deep down really didn't believe it. Through October and November (but time isn't real, so it doesn't really matter :-)) it's like the light turned on for me. I was going through some tough times with me ending a relationship, having my grandmother die and loosing my job all within weeks of each other, but in the middle of all of that I felt total peace and tranquility. Now I'm living it, I'm being it and my intellect can retire in trying to figure it all out and I can just be me. Of course with a busy intellect like mine, I'm sure it will find something to do now to keep busy after retirement. :-)

I'm certainly willing to admit that you have not accused Dave of being Dick Skep. I posted only those comments by you from which I inferred that you thought that he was.

You said: "You seem to assume that I know one way or the other..."

Would you please return the courtesy and tell me what it was that I said that made you think I have made that assumption? I am trying to discern where our problems with communication are.

I have no trouble believing that the sulphur comment was directed at Dick. But since the entire post was directed toward "Dave@Dick," I think you can understand why I thought that your comments were directed to both of them.

You said: "Why is it, do you think, that some people can look at the content and see it, and others look at the content and see the same words as an attack."

There are lots of reasons: a history of attacking, paranoia, perceptiveness, inside information, the tendency to read carefully or too quickly. Hadi, you sometimes seem to me to see an attack where there is none. I do that too, I think. Maybe we all do.

You said, "And I'm sorry, but just because you say it is so, does not make it so."

I agree with you one hundred percent! That is why I talk about my perceptions of your attitude rather than your attitude itself. I don't know your motives or intentions or feelings. But I am an expert on how you come across to me. If you have ever understood the difference, you have not acknowledged it that I know of. I do believe that you are capable of seeing the difference if you will be open to it.

You said: " And it matters not what I say, those people always find a way to twist my words as if I was talking about them."

That's why I usually try to quote what you say so that you can see that I am not twisting your words. If you feel that I am one of those who twists your words, please point it out with my own specific words so that I can better understand. Are you aware of how often you twist things yourself? Are we ever really aware of it when we are twisting something?

I speak only for myself, but it doesn't matter to me what you believe about Dick Skep. I foolishly assumed that you know me to be honest and I told you what I know to be true. But it IS NOT important that you believe me. It is only important to me that I tell the truth.

If you reread my comment about Germaine Greer, you will see that I used it to illustrate how, if I were in defense mode, I could have put a terrible spin on it and blamed you for implying something that you didn't. I saw no insult intended by you in your comment.

And Peggy, in answer to your question, the splats were meant as if I had been splatted. Repeatedly.

Have a nice weekend.

Thank you. It is my hope that one day in the future Dave will come back and look at these exchanges and experience me in a whole different light too. I think the way you explained your own changes is wonderfully honest and something to be celebrated. I don't know about you, but those shifts of perception are so subtle yet so profound.

Mindful

Detached

Mindful

Detached

I bow, I embrace, Namaste'.

Thanks Geoff I've always enjoyed your posts. :-) Are you the author of The Madman? I love that stuff! Madman 6 is quite illuminating to me. :-)

"The Great Way is not difficult-
Just cease to cherish opinions."

The Third Zen Patriarch

Dave: I'm sorry my confidence in my own ideas is such an irritation to you.

Thank you for the apology and sorry for my defensiveness regarding your suggestion about being a little more conversational. I could have worded that more diplomatically too. I did in fact consider saying "honesty is the best policy", but I didn't think that really covered it. Going by past experience I am sure one or two readers enjoyed the way I expressed those ideas in my own way.

To be frank, Dave, I don't have the time that you have to get into conversational dialogues. I am no longer living the life of leasure which permitted such marathon indulgences in Mexico. Whenever that's been the case I compose off-line and post in one shot to save time and money. Internet Services and phone calls are not free here. Not mine anyway. In any case, that's my style.

G'day Chris. I've also been enjoying your posts more lately. :)

Here's something I've been re-reading for the umpteenth time ...

He said to the wind: "Why does man experience anger, fear and violence. And what is peace?"

In that same moment a man appeared on the path, came up to him and struck him a terrific blow. He grew very angry and struck that man. And the man disappeared.

The wind removed him from himself and showed him his heart and mind, how he had appeared when he was in that state. He was ashamed of himself and declared that he would never be moved by anger again.

In that same moment a man appeared on the path and came up to him and struck him a terrific blow. His face grew tense and his fingers curled themselves into a fist. He drew back his hand but could not strike the man. And the man disappeared. He was confused by his own actions because his anger remained.

He asked the wind: "Why was I not able to strike that man?"

The wind smiled and a third man appeared, came up to him and struck his face. Suddenly, his vision changed and he became the man who had struck him. He felt the anger in his heart, the fear and sadness. His mind saw the horrors of the past, his pain and sorrow, his loneliness, his disappointments, the violence he had endured. He saw visions of a child unloved and cast aside.

And his soul was moved. The wind lifted his vision and the stranger returned, raised his fist again and struck him. But his heart quickened and became alive, and his eyes filled with tears. He felt overwhelming love descend upon himself and he embraced that man and wept with him.

And when the man was gone the wind said to him: "Why does man experience anger, fear and violence. And what is peace?"

He did not answer but walked away, his soul at rest, his eyes bright with joy.

Click here for the rest of The Madman at the Poetry Shack website ...

Namaste

Whoops, while re-reading my post, it sounded to me like I was suggesting that you change Hadi, That wasn't what I meant. Please continue to be you, exactly the way you are (as if another option was possible). :-)

Cathy, interesting group of people there at the GRA. Marianne Williamson, Neale Donald Walsch, Deepak Chopra, Gerald Jampolsky, Caroline Myss, James Redfield to mention just a few ...

Here's a direct link for those who don't like typing:

Global Renaissance Alliance

Hadi We are all viewing what is posted here through our filters. Everyone including you and me. That's just part of being human. I must say that I'm enjoying your posts more lately. I feel this has more to do with a change in me than a change in you (though I'm sure you have changed too). You are who you are and do what you do. Then the world interprets, judges and evaluates based on a billion past prejudices, past hurts, happy memories, associations, whatever. You can't stop the judgment of others. It's just going to happen. It's all stuff from the past and as I tried to establish a week ago, the past doesn't exist. As soon as I feel an opinion come up into my awareness, I say, "hey, I have an opinion about XYZ." I may express it or I may not express it. Either way, it's just my opinion and really doesn't mean anything when we really get right down to it. The real question is how am I being, not what are my opinions. At least for me, that's what is important. Of course that too is an opinion so I'm not going to cling too tightly to that either. The way we are being doesn't need defense. It just is. Are you being the way you really want to be. If so, then enjoy! If not, then make distinctions about what is for you and then make the choices needed to change.

Thanks for the Global Renaissance Alliance link, Cathy. Would ya believe that GRA are my initials!

No worries, Hadi. You know that I know that you were just kidding. I still love you too.

If we keep this up, people will talk ... :)

Peggy I bet the purse strings will open a little for a new and better method of recording a vote next election. I bet this fiasco probably cost the country far more than it would of to supply a standardized electronic voting machine in every polling place in the nation.

Geoff: you know i was joking! I thought you were the safest example, but maybe everyone is a bit paranoid. I know I am. I was only using you as a "for instance", there is no truth about the affair, I still love you.

Peggy, Thanks for the good wishes.

I'd like to repeat that I have at no time accused Dave of being Dick, that I can recall, and the two posts you have found, it doesn't matter that they are out of context. I still have not accused Dave of being Dick. You seem to assume that I know one way or the other, and the truth is, Peggy, I don't know. From where I'm sitting, I think it is unlikely that it is Dave or you, but I don't actually know. And I'm not just going to take you or Dave's word for it one way or the other. I will suspend judgement. I wasn't sure who it was then, and I'm not sure who it is now. There are others higher on my list, though, but you are not illiminated because you keep declaring your honesty. Neither of you. In fact, Dave increasingly strengthens the case against him with his reactions.

In the old days we could have a natter about this back stage, and I might give you my thoughts privately just as I am sure you guys have all been speculating in the background between you. But that avenue is closed and I don't know what you know, I only know what I know, and what I know is that "I don't know".

My comment about the sulphur "was" directed at Dick Skep. He had just poured scorn on a post of mine line by line. He had then come along with another acid comment about how my friends were not talking to me anymore, and that was when I made the comment that I wouldn't be sticking around because of the smell of sulphur. But I came back to answer Cathy's question on a point she wanted me to clarify, and the next thing I know, Geoff and Bob are being attacked for agreeing with me and Dave is screaming at me as if I was talking to him and by the same token pouring scorn on my post to Cathy as if I was talking about him or something, when again, I wasn't. So Pegs, I just don't know.

I think it's interesting though. I post something in response to a question or topic by others here at the Forum, not by me, and some people find it interesting, enjoyable, sometimes inspired. Others feel like debating it, questioning it, testing it and in the past some interesting chats have developed from that. But it's always the same people who are unable to see anything in my post but some kind of veiled attack. And it matters not what I say, those people always find a way to twist my words as if I was talking about them. But there are many other posters here and my post today about masks was my joining into the discussion with them.

Why is it, do you think, that some people can look at the content and see it, and others look at the content and see the same words as an attack. And I'm sorry, but just because you say it is so, does not make it so. I do know what my own intent is. There was no twisting in the Germain Greer comment, either. I did see that today on the news and it did make me think of you because of our recent disagreements. I'm not sure if you are accusing me of putting a spin on this comment or not, but it was just the conversational one-liner that Dave seemed to think would improve my approval ratings.

Ahhhh Soooo.

All this self expression! So cool! Oh, the drama of being alive and relating to other people, what a privilege we all have to share in this. Opinions being expressed and shared, some being agreed with and some being disagreed with. It is like a dance. But discord comes when we cling too tightly to our opinions and seek to make it our roll to change another person. Let it go and go with the flow. Express yourselves and enjoy the ride.

Dave I've never read "The Holographic Universe" but I like the sound of it from what you posted. I read a Zen saying today that really resonated with me that goes along with some of what you posted about everyday life being an illusion.

One moon shows in every pool;
in every pool, the one moon."

What struck me reading this is that it is a great analogy to how we are all One appearing to be separate. The ego self is the pool and the real divine self is the moon. We all reflect the same "self" yet it appears when viewing from the ego's frame of reference that there are billions of tiny pools each with their own separate moon. I also like taking this analogy a bit further that the more still we can become the more perfectly we can reflect our divinity. Wow, that really resonates with me.

Geoff cool dolphin, is he a friend of yours?

Peggy "Is anyone here really wearing a deceptive mask?" My answer is yes. 99.9% of my life is a mask. Different masks for different situations and different people. I'm quite a master at it really. I'm so good in fact that I even fooled myself for the first 34 years of my life. Even though I'm aware of my masks now, I still ware them. They are quite comfortable but require a fair amount of energy to maintain. Being authentic is very uncomfortable but requires a lot less energy. I'm finding it really helps to just accept my masks rather than deny that they are there. What we resist persists. :-)

Happy Thursday to everyone!

Cathy, my own definition of "level-headed" is perceptive and reasonable. You and Dick are both very perceptive. His way of presenting what he is thinking is a lot more blunt and a little less tactful. My own personal feelings are that maybe we should be more concerned with honesty and less concerned with avoiding hurting another person's feelings. Just different priorities. I may change my mind tomorrow!

The recount can be done by anyone wanting to do it -- and using any standard. The results, of course, would remain unofficial. I would like to see a count that includes the dimpled ballots and another count that just includes perforations and so on until all possibilities are covered. I suspect that members of the media will be the first in line to count.

By the way, standard distribution doesn't mean a damn in this particular case. It was too close to rely on that.

Having been a participant in hand-counting votes, I will continue to "trust the people." Further, my understanding is that the old voting machines are more likely to be in poorer neighborhoods where the voting is more likely to be Democratic.

I accept the President-Select and I think I've made that as clear as I know how. But these voting machines from the 1960's should be GONE. The Florida officials (and others across the country) were notified by the makers in the eighties that their rate of error was unacceptable. There just wasn't the money for new machines.

Cathy, I agree with you that maybe the vote count shouldn't be done. But that's unrealistic. Inquiring minds want to know.

TO, do you remember the movie from the mid 1950's called Blackboard Jungle? It's so old that it's theme music, "Rock Around the Clock," pretty much introduced rock and roll. The message of that film was that the youngsters of that period were all going to the dogs. "Rebel Without a Cause" came out at about the same time.

If you are from the old school, surely you remember that all was not perfect then either. Can you recall a time when adults weren't concerned about the morals or activities of the young? The teenagers of today are the grandchildren of the "juvenile delinquents" of the fifties. And the grandparents of those delinquents were the flappers and zoot suiters.

No one here is advocating, I think, that we should ignore the problems that exist today with our young people. But, by the same token, maybe you could consider looking at some of the good things that are happening. For example, the dropout rate is WAY DOWN from what it was in the fifties. African American students have access to supplies and new books and good teachers. Female students no longer view education as just something to fall back on if they don't find a mate.

We (most of us here, I think) are not blind about the problems these days but we can put them into perspective with a little honesty. In the meantime, who are you trying to convince? Who is not doing her or his share?

BTW, I really don't think that the vote counting is such a great idea at this point because if it shows Gore would've won it seems it could make coming together harder for many---the point is moot, as i see it. Now for the next time around.... :-)

Cathy

D2, you are so right in your description of the media in the U.S.! I envy you your farm and your ability to refocus on the important things like "chopping wood and carrying water." Our problem, I think, is not that we have too little news coverage, but that we have too much.

I am also tired of the screen being filled up with "bugs" (usually telling what the channel is) and logos and labels and blurbs and special effects. I now have about as much of the picture visible as I did on our old 1950 Motorola 17" screen.

Peggy--oh my! Me and Dick alike?! I'm sure he's cringing :-) I don't see him as level-headed, personally, unless by that you simply mean of a logical/rational mindset. And if that's what you mean, I don't see myself as level-headed in many ways--though I know I am in others. What does level-headed mean to you? BTW, your last comment about perhaps if Dick was aggressive toward you, you might change your mind...that's why I don't see him as level-headed--he really lights into people sometimes and says things rather harshly, as I see it. Though apparently he thinks I like feeling victimized--or so he wondered aloud about me :-)

Carol-I prefer machine error because it cannot be accused of being "partisan" and cannot be bribed or coerced etc....machine error should be standardly distributed. Peggy, tell me more about the group that is counting the votes and the standards they're using, please...

Cathy

One behavior at the forum that I have noticed is that some people don't respond to the actual words that others say here. They twist the words to mean something far more sinister and then respond to the twisted version rather than what was actually said. That seems to me about as unfair as it gets. Let me give a made-up example:

Suppose for a moment that after reading Hadi's comment about seeing Germaine Greer and thinking of me, I had responded with:

"How dare you accuse me of being a lesbian!"

I see the twisting going to that extreme sometimes. I understand that sometimes there is just a simple misunderstanding. But some people are relentless in the twisting. Why do they need to make something more hostile than it really is? Is it to justify the anger they are feeling? Are they needing to feel righteous indignation? Why not check things out with the other person to make sure that what you think has been said is what was really said?

If I am guilty of this, then I would appreciate it if someone would point it out as it happens.

Meanwhile, for those of you who are tired of "he said/she said," sometimes we quote just to emphasize what was actually said as opposed to any spin that we put on it. I am never offended when someone brings one of my quotes up for reexamination. I can defend the quote, restate it in different words, apologize for the remark or point out how the other person has simply misinterpreted.

Also, as I've said before, there is a difference in saying that a person comes across as being _________(fill in the adjective) and in saying that they are _________(same adjective).

Does this make sense to anyone or do I need to double my meds?

Carol, one of the interesting things to me is that those machine-rejected votes will be counted -- just not by election officials. Proabably by the media under the Freedom of Information Act. I think I've made my peace with the way it has turned out though. I just can't imagine what Floridians must be feeling.

Eyore, do you think that it is important somehow, in the grand scheme of things, what country a person is from? By the way, thanks to you, I have a renewed interest in Mother Teresa and watched a biography of her recently. It interested me that she visited England to talk with Margaret Thatcher about doing something for the homeless in Great Britain. (Am I repeating myself?) Anyway, I think that that was indicative of her seeing the need to administer to the poor no matter what country they are in. What is your opinion?

Cathy, you always seem so level-headed to me. That's something that I think that you and Dick have in common. Maybe I would see it differently if Dick were more aggressive with me.

(Dick, don't even think it!)

i wonder if it has occurred to any of us that when the voting began there were no machines to do the counting. one more thing, i would rather have human error than machine errors, too.

Geoff, and any interested--I just "read" my post--and the new ones that had magically appeared...your peace vigil post reminds me that the Global Rennasaince Alliance http://www.renaissancealliance.org/GRA/index.html has a similar thing everyday called 3@3. (which is 3 minutes of prayer for peace at 3pm EST). I've set my watch to beep to remind me of this, and have a little affirmation I say when I can do so--meaning when I'm not right in the middle of something that requires my mind :-)). I assume they are still advocating this--haven't checked into it in awhile. I started with this not long after reading Holographic Universe--when I was fresh with the possibility that our thoughts are things :-) Not a bad habit regardless of one's ideas about our creative abilities, imo :-)

Visualize whirled peas! Cathy

Hi all,

I have a couple of cents to toss in on stuff being discussed...TO--I'm with Kate on the "negative" thinking thing. I had thought that nothing was really good or bad from the big picture and so do not understand the tone of some of your posts--I guess I am an optimist at heart :-) While I acknowledge that "bad" things go on, I equally acknowledge that "good" things do as well, and that it is more helpful to think of the "bad" things as simply things to be addressed, while enjoying the good. And in the belief that things are as they are and that's okay (not that I always feel that way ;-)), I do what I can to bring light to the world (sounds kinda corny ;-)) and go from there....which sorta leads into the news coverage stuff. Unlike D2, I have access to 24/7 coverage :-) But as I recently mentioned I don't watch news at all--except on rare occassions (like I watched the two speeches last night). For me, it just makes everything too "real" (as in something we need to be thinking of nonstop) and dramatic. The bit of information I need I can get from reading, from talking to others and from occassional watching. I'm not really sure why people find the election developments so upsetting--to me it was interesting and a "good" thing to happen because it spotlighted inherent weaknesses in the system--and yet the "system" seemed to handle it all fairly well, I thought. While I hate that many votes were not counted (and that many votes are not counted each year) I think voters will realize how clear they need to be about their ballot before casting it, and I do think that hand count results would have been suspect because of the human factor--so I'm kinda glad Gore didn't "get in" on hand recounts, even though I voted for him. Anyway, the whole event, as I saw it, was not cause for dismay or surprise etc...it was really close! How exciting! Apparently (or so a reporter said last night after the speeches), our third president was elected by the House after a close race--so while such an event seemed bizarre to us today, it would have been nothing new. Enough politics! :-)

Dave--the Talbot quotes were good to read again--I just got "God and the New Physics" by Paul Davies--the quote about being open to changing our positions/ideas is interesting for me. That is something I've mentioned here before--it's a tricky thing. As I see it, it's "good" to have convictions and to not be swayed by peer pressure, but it's also good to be open to change and growth. OTOH, it's "bad" to be too sure and to not listen to anyone's input because of one's "convictions"--it's always been one of my confusions :-) I want to know, but am suspicious when people tell me they know--ha! It seems people who say they know, don't, oftentimes. But then I think perhaps they do know and I am just "closed" to that out of pride or something...then again, what they know is often what I cannot accept....and so it goes ;-)I've relished the idea that wisdom lies in knowing that I know not, for obvious reasons ;-) But, when I think of some masters, at least--like Jesus--they don't fit the Zen master's profile of not having specific ideas that they hold. Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth, and the light--how much more knowing can you get than that?!

Kereya--I know what you mean about labels--I find that I can't help but notice what color people are etc...and I have a few stereotypes that come to mind sometimes based on someone's appearance--but it's a conscious thing and I withhold "reaction" to that thought as I interact with them. It's another one of those tricky things, as I see it--to not gloss over differences trying to say we're all the same, and yet to not make stereotypes and place people in categories based on whatever criteria--obviously the best thing is to "look" at each person individually...as you said, why even distinguish the race of "disenfranchised"--I guess it is helpful sometimes to note race to see if a particular race or ethnic group is being singled out for some favoritism or injustice--dang! Didn't I say enough politics?! What's up with me?

Well, enough said...have a great evening!

Cathy

Denis -- You nailed it! The media frenzy on the 24/7 news channels (MSNBC and CNN) was way more than I could handle. And the relative significance of the election over all other world happenings was an embarrassment. At times it was the proverbial "tempest in a teacup."

My disenchantment with TV news in general, as I mentioned quite a few posts back now, has caused me to ignore most TV news altogether and to look on the web for things that get more depth and more variety. It is amusing that even the 24/7 places refer you to their websites for more depth. CNN has a great website and I usually find all sorts of unusual and exotic stories there. I don't check MSNBC or any of the other broadcast networks, since CNN's site has enough for me to scan and pick through.

The thing that annoys me most, even at CNN's website, is how weak the coverage of scientific developments, discoveries, and advancements are. They're covered, but only in a surface way. It takes still further searches to locate anything with any meat to it.

Tom -- Thanks for removing the mystery (whatever there may have been) of who "the friend" was who wanted some winning lottery numbers. I thought it was a fun little exercise, and I'm truly sorry it didn't pan out. As you say, though, maybe we need to face a few facts about how well we manifest some of these things that appear (to me) to be beyond our control.

Peggy -- Thanks for locating those places where Hadi implied (or I inferred) that he thought Dick Skep and I were one and the same, or at least in collusion.

Kereyra -- If the thing about "implicate order" isn't clear after you sleep on it, I can try to paraphrase it by saying that in much the same way as subatomic particles (electrons especially) seem to be choosing between being particles or waves, those particular "unfoldings" into our awareness come from the "enfolded" true nature of what they really are. The "implicate order" is that "deeper level" of reality that permits different forms to appear in the "explicate order" that is the reality of our senses and perceptions. Bohm's views on these issues seem to have influenced many other scientists, not just in Physics, to consider alternatives they had previously rejected as preposterous. It should also be noted that some serious scientists still reject those views.

Hadi -- the latest "hostility" has sprung from your long post about masks today. What made you think I was hoping you would be back?

For all interested parties,

There is a Global Prayer Vigil LIVE at World Puja on Dec 17th.

Click here for details

Hadi, if you have a problem with me, I'm unaware of it. :) I realise you were probly just using me as a 'for instance'. If you actually do have a problem with me I wish you all the best in sorting it out. Feel free to take out all your frustrations on me. I can take it. :)

'Every problem contains it's own solution.'

Hadi -- I wish to correct something I should have reworded before I posted. Not having the ability to "unring the bell" can leave words posted carelessly there to be reread and responded to any number of times. For that I apologize and ask you to reconsider what I should have said.

When I said that because of your apparent unwillingness to apologize, or admit your errors in dealing with others here, that I don't like you nor respect you, my words would be closer to the truth (as I feel it) to have said "I don't like or respect that behavior you exhibit."

This may sound like a quibble, but there is a great deal of difference from my perspective. I do like many aspects of who you are, and I respect many things about you as well. Those particular shortcomings of yours seem out of character for someone with your sensibilities and dedication. I don't like that you persist in demonstrating them.

Perhaps this rewording is not adequate even yet. But it is much closer to how I feel about you than what I said earlier. I'm sorry if the words were too sharp and too judgmental. I admit that they were poorly chosen and that they escaped my editing of that post. Please accept my apology for misusing the language so.

Hadi is an Iranian living in Great Britain. Be careful with your history lessons on that part of the world. If you open that Pandora's open it may never close again. Trust me ;-)

Just kidding Hadi...

I have been blessed to be away from (ALL NEWS ALL THE TIME 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, 365 DAYS A YEAR, WHEN IT HAPPENS WE ARE THERE AND IF IT DOESN'T YET HAPPEN WE'LL MAKE IT UP OR KEEP WHIPPING YOU UP INTO A FRENZY UNTIL YOU BECOME AS RABID AND WILD AS WE ARE AS WE FIND YET ANOTHER WAY TO SAY ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAS HAPPENED YET BUT WHEN IT DOES WE'LL BRING IT TO YOU LIVEEEEEE !!!!!!) for almost 2 and 1/2 years.

We live on a small farm, do not have satellite or cable so our media choices are limited to the three Dutch public TV stations (and three German public stations but learning Dutch was hard enough and the Germans do voiceover dubs while we do subtitles...)

The funniest video of the last week was made by a Dutch newscameraman showing everyone racing out the side door of the US Supreme Court building holding the opinion/decision while racing to their mark for a breathless 'live' update shot. Nobody had any clue what the opinion said but went on camera to say it anyways...

I have clicked the CNN.com REAL Audio button four times in the last 36 days and tried to just visualize and listen for about ten minutes. I never made it the full ten because just the anxiety-filled speech tones, rapid switches, rude cutting off of everybody and they even had a couple of late-night radio talk show guys screaming at each other that the energy was so completely unsettling and nerve-wracking. I do not know how people survived watching this nonsense for 36 days.

It was like the OJ car chase, trials (criminal and civil) and traffic altercation all rolled into one clip. I heard more expert analysis from people I do not know (nor would care to) and was wondering what the heck happened.

The election made the 8:00 evening news ever night here with about three well balanced minutes. I then knew everything that happened that day and learned about the rest of the world too, including the global warming meeting and critical EU expansion talks this past week in Nice (never saw a minute of those on CNN except the riot footage of a few disgruntled dissidents). We got the substance of the talks and the issues.

I am a bit stunned today to be an American. The impeachment embarrassed, this dumbfounded. The best line though was from Jeff Greenfield, when he said, 'two weeks ago we were in uncharted waters, today we left the gravitational pull of the earth'.

Kate and Hadi--- Kate you are right about the Iranians (Persians) being officially Aryan. The English word 'Iranian' is rooted in the word 'Aryan'and it is believed where the Aryan peoples originated. In fact Persian is an indo-european language with many similar words to like 'mother' 'daughter' 'brother' to English and German. Iran is a actually a province of Persia. The Germans in WWII actually went to Persia to sing Aryan praises to try and get them to ally with Germany at a time when Germany really needed oil. But the Brits and Ruskies would have none of that and invaded- Reds from the north and Brits from the south. And no I am not Jewish Hadi. Were you a muslim? or Zoarastrian?

Re: Germaine and Bill:

Or maybe they were friends during Germaine's Cambridge days.

Hadi, are you throwing tomatoes or being pelted by them? Your splats left me uncertain about your perception.

Hadi, I hope that my response to the question that you asked Dave was a sufficient answer. Yes, there was news coverage of it here. I knew about the conference before the question was asked but I can't speak for others. Did it receive a lot of coverage? I don't know. There are so many news sources here and so many issues to cover. Understandably, I have been absorbed with the election issues. Also, U.S. news reports are not the only news coverage that we have access to.

I can't speak for Dave who is out teaching the kiddies again. But these two posts are what led me to infer that you believed that Dave and Dick are the same person:

On Sunday, November 19, 2000, Hadi (Dave@Dick)@212.67.98.82 said:

"...The fact that you can make lots of internet links to back-up your view is not surprising since your view remains the majority view..." (I have added bold type.)

You address Dick and Dave as if they have a "view" as opposed to views. Of course this section is taken out of context because the post was too long to repost without losing the part that led me to believe that you thought Dick and Dave are the same person.

And this:

On Monday, November 20, 2000, Hadi (01@Aye ya yae!)@212.67.100.219 said:

"...My comment about the sulphur was a reference to Dick Skep, since he had been particularly caustic. However, if you are Dick, then that would explain a lot..." (Bold type added)

Because both of these comments were from a larger context, I have given the dates that the posts were made so that anyone can review for themselves.

I think it is understandable how anyone might infer from these comments that you believed Dave and Dick to be the same. However, I am not saying that you insinuated that they are.

I hope that you find this helpful.

There are at least four participants here who know that Dave and Dick are not the same: Dave, Dick, Kate, and me. We also know that Dick is not Kate or me. Kate, Dave and I were together in my living room while Dick was posting elsewhere.

I want to wish you and Grace joyful holidays filled with peace and good will. May the new year bring some resolution to the problems that separate us.

Hello all,

Perhaps I was unclear E so I will try one more time with the analogy. The human side of D2 (not my real name but it is the 'mask' I wear to honor my wife whose name also begins with a D) finds himself filled with outrage at the taking of another life. There is another side though that looks beyond the act, the actors, the stage and always wonders what the real mesage is.

When I see people suffering through life's lessons and/or clinging onto life out of fear of somehow losing it, I have a very high level of sympathy for their journey.

When I said I was glad we disagreed, it was because without the seeming polarity or dichotomy of our viewpoints, we could not each find our own path and answers to this and other questions.

What works for me, may not work for you and vice versa and that is OK. Whatever brings you peace and happiness or... leads to the understanding you seek in this issue is all that really matters.

There are way less than six degrees of seperation on this and any other issue between us mate.

Please tell me which statement you found particularly agressive and I'll tell you if it was or not. From my own sense of what is going on in my process, I have been just expressing my views on the mask issue which I did with no aggression or intent to seem aggressive. Just my views. I thought the response to those have been aggressive. Very openly so. And to one or two of those responses I was quite assertive. If it is being experienced as agressive by you, I am sorry.

* * *

splat! splat! splat!

Hi Peggy: My question to Dave yesterday about the World Climate Summit in the Hague wasn't because I didn't have the information. It was in response to Dave's question about the shallow reporting of the US news. The summit was very closely reported here, but considering the travesty of the outcome, I was wondering how seriously the US media had taken it, and how much they reported on the events taking place. Was it low down in the list of news items? I suspect with the election soap opera going on that the Earth Summit may have passed unnoticed.

BTW, Bil Clinton was visiting Warwick University today in Britain and after his speech, when leaving the hall and shaking hands with the audience, he stopped to have a long chat with none other than Germaine Greer. There was no commentary, I just noticed who he had stopped to talk to. Made me think of you. I guess they may have been friends back in Bill's Oxford days.

Dave, the explanation has only confused me more, but right now I'm pretty convinced it's the sleepiness brought on by a big meal and a late night out! I'm sure that when I look at this tomorrow it'll make much more sense.

What immediately comes to mind is the image of someone "real" making us and our interactions up. Sort of like the holographic chessboard in Star Wars (I). Hans Solo and Chewbacca being the real players, while the chess pieces thought they were the ones fighting the war. Like I said, perception is slow.

I recently read a great children's book for my students about masks. The idea that the Iroquois had in their "False Face" Society is precisely that the mask (being made from a tree) somehow allowed the user to "have" the information Mother Nature had so that they could heal those who were ill. I assume a mask that is part of a life force, programmed with information I do not have. I think that was the idea.

Language teachers (maybe other kinds) are well-known for being someone different in the classroom. The "teacher" mask allows many of us to be extravagant in our behaviour, almost actors, while in public life we may be dreadfully shy (quick polls at national conferences). It seems we draw our "performance" in the classroom from a strength or knowledge that we cannot easily access in other social situations.

Sorry for generalizing. It's easier for me to write like this right now.

You know Hadi, hate to say it my friend, but sometimes your messages do come across aggressively. Is that your intention? Just noting this on the exchanges going on.

After listening to CNN this morning, and seeing the Iranian, Aryan, Arab, Jewish exchange here...I have a serious question. How many of y'all seriously dwell on, think of, give passing (or more) importance to the gender, race, nationality, age issue when communicating with someone? It just struck me this morning how insistent people can be about emphasizing the differences. This is a lame explanation for my interest, but it got to me that a politician would mark the fact that African-Americans had been "disenfranchized" (new buzzword) without acknowledging the greater truth that many voters, in general, had been dis..., not only Af. Ams. I just don't get it.

Really, Dave? Well, thanks for clearing that up. There I was thinking you couldn't wait for me to come back...

Could you explain to me what this latest hostility is about, Dave?

There is an important difference in the denial that we use as a defense mechanism and the denial that is basically a dishonesty with others.

I don't think that anyone who has been around the forum for more than a day would seriously accuse either DaveR or me of hesitating to express our honest opinions. I believe that that is true of most of the regulars who post here. Is anyone here really wearing a deceptive mask?

Found this convenient explanation for all of us: "Iranians are said to be Aryans and this is in part true. Though predominantly Aryan, they are in fact a mixture of many nations and races: the Old Asian people who lived on the Iranian plateau before the arrival of the Aryans; the Aryans who moved to the plateau mostly in the first millennium BC ; and finally the descendants of the later conquerors: Arabs, Turks, and Mongols."

hey Tom! thanks! i haven't played yet but will try playing this Saturday. i'll keep you-all posted but my post won't look as good as yours, heh.

hi again, Dave, yes i have talked to others and they were very unhappy about the whole mess. i understand, too. i had mentioned, in a post here, before, that my county, Brevard, had an easy ballot and the recount was exact. i was very happy about that, so it helps me to understand how others feel, too. also when i traveled up thru Ga and Tenn i had a chance to talk to people and they were Laffing their ass off at us and i heard many jokes, too. :(

hi Dave, i posted before i had fully read and the comment about Gore's writer's had caught my eye and it was a FYI post, not necessarily to anyone in particular. also, since i have been able to read a bit now, i want to ad, that i am enjoying the comments from you and Hadi about the mask/anon posting. i feel you have both made some very good points about this topic. thanks to both of you, for your input.

those comments are in response to my reading, when i last checked in and now, i see there is more.... ;) so i'll post this, catch up and check in, again, later.

The Chopra Forum Lottery Experiment

On Sunday, December 10, 2000, DaveR said:
Hey, y'all, I've been asked by a friend to help divine some winning lottery numbers, and I just figured out how we can do that -- here! We can engage in some "collective altruism" for the good of someone who needs those numbers. Here's how it works. Without doing any more than closing your eyes and thinking of a number between 1 and 100, do that and post your number. The order they come up will assist the one who needs those numbers and that person can just gather in the rewards. We will each have contributed to the collective and none of us will get to share the results, which is altruism if I ever heard of it. What's the cost to you? One post. The potential reward to someone else? Millions. Wanna help somebody? Just do it.

Participants:

On Sunday, December 10, 2000, DaveR said: 47; Frank said: 17; DaveR (for Peggy) said: 22; carol said: 53; Richard Nordeen said: 35; Chris V. said: 3; Pat said: 15 and 74; and On Monday, December 11, 2000, Kate said: 9

Possible Numbers:

Arizona: 6 numbers drawn from 1-41
Powerball: 5 numbers drawn from 1-49 and 1 number drawn from 1-42
California: 5 numbers drawn from 1-47 and 1 number drawn from 1-27

This throws out Carol's #53 and Pat's #74 as possible draws in any of the games. The playable numbers are: 47, 17, 22, 35, 3, 15, and 9.

Numbers Chosen:

Arizona: (Easiest pick as 47 was immediately ruled out.)
3, 9, 15, 17, 22, 35

Powerball: (Two picks)
9, 17, 22, 35, 47 + Powerball #15 and
3, 15, 17, 22, 47 + Powerball #9

California Superlotto Plus: (Two picks)
3, 17, 22, 35, 47 + Mega #15 and
15, 17, 22, 35,47 + Mega # 9

Pat's #15 and Kate's #9, which were posted last, were alternated as the Powerball and Mega numbers as these are chosen last in the drawings.

And the Winning Numbers for 12/13/00 Are:

Arizona: 8, 11, 12, 16, 27, 37 and 28 (They've just recently added a bonus ball into the draw. You still pick 6 but they draw 7.)
Powerball: 6, 10, 19, 38, 43 and Powerball #41
California Superlotto Plus: 12, 15, 16, 29, 39 and Mega #23

So out of three different lotteries and a total of five picks between them, only Pat's #15 was drawn.

Thank you everyone who participated but we all need to brush up on our precognition skills. :-) This all started due to a comment I made to Dave R. privately and since people actually gave numbers I thought I'd play them. I'm curious to know if anyone else tried them in their lottery.

Just a side note, my regular "quick picks" for last night's California game only had one number right out of three picks. That happens to be 15 too. (Don't have my Arizona quick pick ticket on hand here at work to compare it to the results.)

Hadi -- one of my perceptions of you is that you do not read much here. You post and then look for specific feedback to what you post. Other than that, if the word Hadi is not in the post, then that post is infinitely trifling and tedious.

I also don't believe you remember from one time to the next what you have said before. You're forever claiming "I never said that" and when you are confronted with the exact quote, after somebody else has gone to find it, you either deny it or explain it away with all sorts of waffling.

In all the tens of thousands of words you have graced this forum with, I don't recall ever seeing the phrases "I was wrong" or "I apologize" or "I'm sorry."

Any one of those phrases would be a tacit admission that you are no better than anyone else here. That's something about you that I firmly believe and have said so before. But you appear not to consider it relevant or important. For that one reason, Hadi, I don't like you nor respect you.

And, look, this is not coming from an anonymiser so you can do with it whatever you do when "a real person" says it to you. Most likely find ways to belittle and embarrass the other person. Never consider the possibility the other person is trying to shoot straight with you.

My, aren't we touchy?

E Mac: No, I am Iranian. You may or may not be aware there is a difference. Are you Jewish?

Hadi -- yes, they are things in my head. No, I am not defensive about your post. I was responding to points I either disagreed on or wanted to express my own opinion on, which I will continue to do -- when the notion strikes, and without even considering the possibility that you might or might not like it. You have the same option of bypassing my comments. Avail yourself of it at will.

My main control issue is that I refuse to be controlled!

Kereyra -- all I can do is to quote a little more on the "implicate order" concept. The counterpart is the "explicate order." Another term for implicate is enfolded; and for explicate is unfolded. The book attributes the coining of the term to Bohm, and introduces the concept in this paragraph on page 46:

"One of Bohm's most startling assertions is that the tangible reality of our everyday lives is really a kind of illusion, (Yo! Chris!) like a holographic image. Underlying it is a deeper level of reality that gives birth to all the objects and appearances of our physical world in much the same way that a piece of holographic film gives birth to a hologram...He uses these terms because he sees the manifestation of all forms in the universe as the result of countless enfoldings and unfoldings between these two orders."

----- Michael Talbot

That help any?

You seem very defensive about my post, Dave. I also don't remember accusing you of being Dick Skep. Perhaps you would like to point that out. I did say you seemed to think the same.

I also am not convinced that Dick is a long time poster here as you suggest. These are things you are reading into my post, Dave. Things in your head. I was addressing those who do post anonymously for whatever reason, and judging by your reaction, that includes you. Dick I think is a special case and I tend to think of him as falling into band "D".

As to my using the anonymiser, I used it under the name of Bruce Lee just to see how it works. Afterwards I wondered why I didn't use my own name. Something about the dynamic, I guess. Before the anonymiser I once posted as the Star Ship Enterprise just to try out some new HTML tricks. That was years ago. No real comment or discourse was involved with either post. I was just curious. If you are referring to the recent posts by one or more other Dick Skeps, I have no idea who those were. I have some suspicions based on the language and the knowledge, but I'm not going to put those out here for speculation. I found the idea that it was me quite funny but I didn't want to post and deny it when I saw the accusation because I wanted to see where it was going. Unfortunately it fizzled out. I was also in London at the time, away from my p.c. I read most of it after it had happened so I didn't have a chance to experience the live interaction which is always different. I did think there were some more obvious candidates, but Ego usually sees what it wants to see and neither reason or intuition are of any use when we operate from that center.

Yikes! Just went back to read the last few posts. That last little bit I wrote is just about Talbot.

I understand that whole last quote to be equal to stating a message, receiving it and then negotiating not only the meaning, but of one or other participant allowing the negotiation to possibly influencing his own point of view. Hmmm... It seems to me a sad thing when we close ourselves to change, when we close ourselves to understanding what another has to say.

I guess sometimes we become overprotective of ourselves and our ideas...not necessarily thinking that they're the best, rather thinking that they're "ours."

Breakfast was delicious! Back to the room.

Dave, I liked your Talbot post. Can you explain the phrase "implicate order?" That went right over my head. I hope it's just a full belly and not dying neurons that make me slow this morning.

Carol -- have you had any direct contact with residents of those counties where all the recounting mess took place? If so, how have they reacted to being national (or worldwide) spectacles for this "Election Month"?

Remember the Birthweek and Birthmonth stuff? From now on must we anticipate Election Month?

the news reported that Gore wrote his own words this am? guess it's the truth....

Thanks, E. There are quite a few passages in that book that have great relevance here and in other venues where exchanges of opinion on these matters come up. Well-written book, with as close to an unbiased approach one could come while still advocating a point of view that this is, indeed, a holographic universe.

Hadi--- With a name like 'Hadi' is that Arab? Are you of Arab extraction?

Dave R.--- I like that post from Michael Talbot. Good one.

Hadi -- as you wish! If you have anything to say to me, please address me up front of your post. Otherwise, I will take you at your word and scroll your posts.

Dave: I urge you to address your control issues. I will post in my own voice as I please. If the content is to heavy or dense, scroll by.

Although I bought the book The Holographic Universe almost two months ago, I'm just now getting around to reading it aloud to Peggy. We're on page 94 of 302 (plus index and sources lists for a total of 338 pages in the paperback version). There is a section starting on page 72 with the heading Vortices of Thought and Multiple Personalities that has a paragraph (page 74) that struck me as having real value for this forum.

"If you want to become aware of your own frozen vortices of thought, Shainberg recommends you pay close attention to the way you behave in conversation. When people with set beliefs converse with others, they try to justify their identities by espousing and defending their opinions. Their judgments seldom change as a result of any new information they encounter, and they show little interest in allowing any real conversational interaction to take place. A person who is open to the flowing nature of consciousness is more willing to see the frozen condition of the relationships imposed by such vortices of thought. They are committed to exploring conversational interactions, rather than endlessly repeating a static litany of opinions. "Human response and articulation of that response, feedback of reactions to that response and the clarifying of the relationships between different responses, are the way human beings particpate in the flow of the implicate order," says Shainberg."

----Michael Talbot

I think we can all improve in this respect, and I intend to try to myself.

Finally!! Something else to watch on CNN! Hallelujah!

I saw Gore's speech and thought that his writer deserved a prize. Pretty straightforward for the most part. Didn't like the way Bush acted. I don't know...too pious?? Not to say that Gore was natural, he had everything down pat...sign of rehearsal?

Well, in any case, off of that. Be back in a minute. Breakfast is here.

Hadi -- You said,

"C) As Dave and a couple of other posters have stated, I am able to be playful, lyrical, musical, serious, argumentative, flirtatious, aggressive, angry, sad and wrong, all under my own name. I can take full responsibility for who I am. And in doing so I am sometimes forced to confront aspects of myself which I don’t like and which I need to address in order to get along in the world. Sometimes I can discover and realise great talents within myself by allowing myself to express things without fear and anger. This is a very liberating and very progressive Way. It allows me to evolve and fulfil my potential much more than if I kept everything locked up for fear of being ridiculed."

If you're looking for feedback, as this paragraph suggests, I would urge you to consider a little more of a conversational approach to this forum. Shorter posts. More Q&A before reaching conclusions on things like motive and purpose. More participation.

If it will help you at all in how you are perceived here, I can give you a few of the observations I have made about you. I will wait for your indication that you want such things from me. I want to be sure you're really wanting to hear them.

Hadi -- Since I have assured you that I am not Dick Skep (nor am I E.Macleod -- if that thought crossed your mind) I would like to echo the sentiment that the use of "ego" and "denial" and "mirror" and "projection" in your posts has gone way past saturation point for me. I retch when I see those words. Think of something new to say!

Hadi -- another thing I have spotted in your masks post. You seem anxious to be able to label or pigeonhole people. Why is that?

Hadi -- another thing I have picked up (suspected) in your masks post is that you seem to think that Dick Skep is someone who has posted here under another name, with perhaps a different agenda or persona. There have been times when I have inferred that you thought (or think) that I am Dick Skep.

If you can believe anything I say here, I can assure you that I have never posted as Dick Skep. Not once.

That's not to say that I haven't posted under other names before. I have. I was Gyte Poon (one of them -- somebody else swiped that name at least once), Tyler Flanchard, Varzel Screed, Nathan Burdette, Garmish Freen, and when I first started posting here it was as opie@mayberry.com. If you look back in the archives for what those posts contained, it was mostly nonsense intended to break a mood or an impasse.

Anything I have chosen to say that I have felt strongly enough about to risk dissent or disagreement on, I have said directly as DaveR.

I certainly don't suggest that others who may have chosen to post anonymously would own up to that and identify all the pseudonyms or aliases they have used. That's for individuals to determine for themselves.

But to whatever degree you, Hadi, have also used the anonymizer, I would think a little honesty on your part on that topic might bolster your position a little.

Hadi -- just for the sake of specifics, let's take Dick Skep's posts as a working example. Surely Dick (the real one) can correct any misunderstandings we might address.

My observation of Dick's position and content has been that he (she?) has been quite consistent. The purpose he/she seems to have had so far is to point out the alternative positions to many of those that show strong advocacy of Deepak's words and practices. His "other side of the coin" presentation has been from the position of a critic. I have not seen much vacillation from that position.

Have you, Hadi?

Hadi -- See how much of this statement you can agree with. It is based on a cursory read of your long posts just now about masks.

If we have a strong emotional response to something said here it is better to say it outright, no holds barred, than to suppress it or to post it anonymously.

On Cyber-MasksI don't have any problem with someone posting and not using their real name or email. There are good reasons for doing just that, and I sometimes wonder how wise I was to be so open all along.

That said, I don’t believe simply using your first name or nick name poses any privacy or security risks IMO. However, I think that whether you are going to post under an alias or your real name it would serve everyone best if you did so consistently i.e. you always posted under that name. That way we know we are dealing with the same person.

In a sense, in the cyber environment, this is not any more anonymous than the other posters. Behind the name we build a profile in our mind from the personality which may be male or female, a parent, a teacher, a grandparent, a chess player, a dancer, an astronomer, a photographer, from Texas, from London, from Persia, from Melbourne Australia, from Mexico, from Canada, who happens to be overweight, skinny, ill, bereaved, sad, lost, a cat lover, a dog lover, curious, crazy, …. Etc. You get the picture. We form a picture. The poster becomes real. Tangible. Sympathetic.

What I do object to is using the masks to hide behind in addition to the identity you would normally post under, and using them to score points, belittle others, be offensive and pretend your opinion has wide support when it does not and creating deceptions which are self serving. These acts of malicious deception trouble me and serve no purpose to my fellow beings.

Even if you were simply using the mask to test an idea, uncertain of how that idea may be received, you are essentially operating from a position of FEAR. And fear is an Ego characteristic. Insecure. By using a mask for this purpose, you are not taking responsibility for your own ideas, words, thoughts and actions, or your own errors. You reason that they belonged to that mask and to that creation which was fictional. This is DENIAL. This is what it is to be fragmented as a human being. The mask IS an aspect of YOU. A fragment. You will even deny to your nearest and dearest that you had anything to do with that projection.

Using an anonymiser to do the same thing is no different and becomes confusing when many people use the anonymiser and do so under secondary identities, because we no longer know who is genuine and who is not.

In answer to the argument that some people are able to express aspects of themselves better from behind masks in anonymity, I would say:.
A) Man tends to wear masks all the time. It is part of his ego conditioning and structure. He has a different mask on for his family, for his lover, for his place of work and for his place of play. She has one mask for her sexuality with this one, and a different mask with that one. The Jew shows a different face to his brother than he does to an Arab and vice-versa. We share several masks in some areas of our life and only one in others. Worst of all we deny these aspects about ourselves not only to others, but we often deny their existence to ourselves. A racist person, for example, can be quite politically correct in certain circles while knowingly belonging to a far right racist party or association. Another may believe and claim he is not a racist while confiding to a liberal friend that there are too many "coons" in his neighbourhood. Becoming this fragmented is a neurosis. It is in wholeness that we are healed and strong.

B) By staying in the closet you are not confronting or releasing that aspect of yourself which needs to be addressed and expressed. Essentially you are suppressing it and making it into a monster of guilt. If I have a problem say with Geoff., or one of my masks had a problem with Geoff. while the rest of my masks didn't, I may decide to express this problem anonymously through a mask in this environment, or in a poison letter or some kind of act of cruelty. I could pretend it was never intentional. Or I could repress it all together. We all know how bad repression is. So that's not the best way although it is often the most common. The anonymous approach can create a temporary relief, but eventually I'll suffer self-worth issues, guilt and such. The guilt, which is a negative energy will want release, but not being fully conscious (because I'm playing roles and coming from Ego), and my ego can never admit any wrong doing, so I will end up just releasing more negativity to justify my position and thereby creating a pattern of abuse which creates greater denial and ultimately erodes my soul. I'll still be in the closet about what's really bugging me about Geoff. My hostility would mount up and my relationship with Geoff. would deteriorate as neurosis and justification and projection took hold.

C) As Dave and a couple of other posters have stated, I am able to be playful, lyrical, musical, serious, argumentative, flirtatious, aggressive, angry, sad and wrong, all under my own name. I can take full responsibility for who I am. And in doing so I am sometimes forced to confront aspects of myself which I don’t like and which I need to address in order to get along in the world. Sometimes I can discover and realise great talents within myself by allowing myself to express things without fear and anger. This is a very liberating and very progressive Way. It allows me to evolve and fulfil my potential much more than if I kept everything locked up for fear of being ridiculed.

D) You may be posting under a mask because you feel you have something to hide. If you are an agent provocateur, a cyber terrorist sent in by the pharmaceutical corporations, or a fundamentalist religious organisation, or the American Medical Association, or the State, or an agency representing all of the above, then your wearing a mask is understandable. Your concealing your identity and essentially being a faceless agitator is to be expected and understood for what it is ; ). But if you are a regular poster who is hiding his "cross dressing" habits, you need to confront that fear. You will only heal from revealing your truth and there is nothing about you to be ashamed of. Everything can be forgiven, everything can be healed, no matter how terrible. And sometimes you’d be surprised, something you feel ashamed of because of your conditioning and upbringing may in fact be of no consequence to others, and if it is, it is as important to know that about them as it is for them to know your truth. Finally, and Cathy touched on this with great insight. When we post under our own name we have a natural tendency to be more responsible, careful and sensitive about the things we say and do, because they reflect on who we are. This happens quite naturally. Just as it becomes more natural to be irresponsible under the mischief of the mask. Since the mask used for deception is already a lie, and therefore evil, only evil can come of it.

Please understand. this in no way negates the Shaman post on masks. That was an altogether different understanding and definition of "mask" than the one applied here in "cyberspace." The mask is used in it’s literal and symbolic meaning to be neutral.
The Shamanic mask is meant as a faceless incarnation. A being without personality, ego, associations. The Shamanic mask is neutral. It neutralises the wearer, making him a faceless nothing. For behind the mask is a God. And to be a God you must first become nothing. So the Shamanic mask is not to conceal who you are from others, it is to conceal that you are human, that you are a person or a personality at all. It is to remove those associations. The Shaman’s mask is worn so as to accommodate the dropping of all ego attachments.

Namaste’.

p.s. Geoff, I’m glad I got that off my chest.
And Dick, I hope those words you don't like didn't get in the way ;) but you're going to come across them a whole lot at this site.

Namaste'.

Question: why do you watch trash news programs?

Why would you think things would stand still, never change? I know I've said this to you a hundred times, but just like a close friend of mine who was a prosecutor, you work with a certain percentage of the population. The rest is not all bad, not all in trouble. When you make statements like the one about meth production, tell me how you know that, where you are getting your information.

I am not a Pollyanna, but I'm not quite the pessimist that I read in you. You can't solve a problem if you're part of it, thinking negatively all the time. IMO

Not a news source Dave. Maxine Walters, Wexler, Jesse, Sharpton(?), Press, ladies in texas, etc.

I was just chuckling to myself.............ya Dick (and CFP or whoever), same oh, same oh, here I come again.

Had a young man seeking help from one of our psychiatric facilities the other day (last Friday). He was "evaluated", diagnosed, and turned loose.

On Monday he killed four other young teenagers.

Don't want to hear it?

Sorry folks.

I'm always kinda surprised when people are asked "are you better off than you were 8 years ago".........and practically all of them say "yes".

I must really be from the "old" school.

Locking everything up, security systems, careful where I drive and shop, martial arts training, having a gun, gated communities/houses, etc., etc., etc.

When the discussion was on how "blessed" we are (just us here at the Forum) compared to the "have-nots" and those who are so busy just keeping a roof, food, and clothing on themselves I was thinking.......thank God for Chopra and those that are trying to wake up the affluent.

History (and our own experiences) have shown us the fact of the old story about the "bad apple in the bushel" (or whatever it was). The "destruction" just one person can cause.

Here's a combination for you.........the largest group of teenagers in our history coming along (and MORE behind them), and the largest manufacturing of "meth" going on and springing up all over the country.

Are we ready for that? I think not, and it's the have's that better wake up, as it's their world that's being undermined, as well as their children's.

Got a solution? Yes!

Later

Terry -- what "news source" did you see all that liberal chatter on?

Terry -- do you remember Jackie Vernon? He had dozens of things that defied understanding. A couple of examples:

The wet bird never flies at night.

A true buffalo never turns its head to the wind.

With all the posts lately I was reminded of Crossfire, where the liberals were all running their mouths so much (and loud), dominating the conversation and always interrupting, that the conservative couldn't be heard.

I think the liberals are schooled in that tactic.

Ahhhhhhhh Soooooooooooooo!

"looks" like ya all got busy "doing". Great!

Namaste'

No problemo Dave, just showing Geoff he's not alone.

~~~~~~~~home~~~~~~~~

AAWWKK! My eyes! My eyes!

Please excuse the typos. Hope no lasting damage was done. :)

Greetings, people (and others).

Just found a nifty new site which some of you may derive an unspecified amount of benefit from:

Buddha Mind

It's worth visiting fort he graphics alone, IMO

Namate

He did not
mumble,
stumble,
or fumble.

He did
grumble>br>but was
humble.

For those of you who don't understand Americans:

The republic stands; we close ranks.

Peggy "President-select" Very funny!!! I second your hope for someone in 4 years that isn't more of the same BS!

Lars, thanks for your messages and your efforts. You have always been a very sensitive friend.

I've always had confidence in our country -- even with all of its blemishes. Maybe those feelings will return.

But until GWB is sworn in, I will refer to him as the President-Select.

I hope the person who is elected four years from now is someone I've never even heard of yet.

Terry -- If it makes any difference, I have no idea what you're saying.

Isn't the method (process) of evolution great?

Up.........down, good...........bad?

I kinda wish the Democrats would be in "power" during this period as we head into the usual business cycle that was delayed by technology, and the long overdue revamping of our whole infrastructure.

Ahhhhhhh Soooooooooooooooooo!

Pegasus thanks for the info on "Unity Consciousness" and the effects. Right on.

Namaste'

How goes the ADD (ADHD) Sangha today?

Lars, your words are apropos for current events here. Compassionate/Conservatism, Republican/Democrat being in vogue, here's hoping.

{{{{Yin/Yang}}}}

Chris, thank you for the link. I just read over the article and was amazed. It sounds quite a bit like conversations that my husband and I have had over the last several months. I worry about the future of this country. I worry about the long term effects. I wonder if we should get away from the 'basic' two party system and open the door that would allow more to run for office with equal financial support.

Will someone come along, before it is to late, who will take on the responsibility of turning this country around and not rely on the popular polls or who donates the most money to the parties treasure chest?

What can transform that which is not good, true or beautiful? Love can.

The good, the true, and the beautiful cannot be destroyed. Anything that is not good, true, or beautiful can be transformed. And in that transformation, that which is not good, true or beautiful may appear to be destroyed. And when resisting that transformation, pian will be felt.

Bush and Gore are the same person

I know what you're saying about the Constitution. No concession yet.

hey, T & P, i hope that frowny face didn't signal that i was disappointed to hear about the court's decision, here? the frown was about the decision, not the fact i read it here.

ok, i'll truck on down stars and check out the news..... hmmm, i'm not even sure what time it is. computer clock says 6:35am. sounds right, i guess.....

hmmm, sounds yummy, Lars, and thanks for sharing the celebration from Sweden.

liberal document....

Peggy, the thing i see wrong with it is the constitution is a liberal. can a conservative govt give it justice? oh that probably sounds stupid but i hope you can figure out where i'm coming from. i feel a little road weary, right now, i'll post it anyway to see your response. thanks.

and Dave, i agree that news coverage is too much like entertainment, too bad.

and Tom & Peggy, thanks for letting me know what the Supreme Court decided. i went to bed before i knew last night. :(

did Gore concede, yet?

hi Tom, i felt that way from the R. King exposure. good take on my Q to k, too. thanks.

Lucia Cats

I don't watch the news, generally speaking and find it amazing how easy it is to keep up pretty much just from hearing from other people, reading headlines and occassional articles and the like. Re the election, one update per day was all I got--online. They spend too much time saying the same things. I occassionally watch stuff cuz hubby has it on. So I don't have much constructive criticism of good and bad reporting--I only take small doses of any of it :-) I really only want to know what I need to know to contribute to a "better" world--now how much that might be is debatable...;-) And a personal decision, I guess. I do find opinions and arguments presented helpful to a certain extent because they typically know more about the laws and history etc...involved--though I marvel at how boths sides always seem to be right ;-)At least they give me something to consider whether I agree or not or with whom I agree...anyway, I've never been a fan of news or current events, thougj--as I said, I feel some obligation to know some to participate in things...

Good night! Oh--Brad, enjoyed your Santa and concrete story! How funny! Cathy

Alba Lucia--El Deepak no visita este lugar...y aqui la mayoria no hablan Espanol, creo. No se de que estas hablando--este "red global de espiritualidad"? Hay otro lugar que puedas contactar a ver si algun habla Espanol...es www.chopra.com. Ojala, te he ayudado. Al menos, he practicado un poco mi Espanol, no? Buena suerte! Cathy

Dick, let's see if I have this right:

Conservative U.S. Supreme Court Justices elect a Republican who will, in turn, appoint conservative Supreme Court Justices. What's wrong with this picture?

Blow ill wind, blow away, let me rest today.
You're blowin' me no good, no good.
Go ill wind, go away, skies are oh so gray
Around my neighborhood, and that ain't good.
You're only misleadin' the sunshine I'm needin', ain't that a shame?
It's so hard to keep up with troubles that creep up From out of nowhere, when love's to blame.
So ill wind, blow away. Let me rest today.
You're blowin' me no good.
So, ill wind, blow away, please let me rest today.
You're blowing me no good, no good, no good.

So basically the US Supreme Court told the Florida Supreme Court it was wrong but too bad cuz there's no time to get it right.

Someone tell Al Gore time doesn't exist. It cost him the election.

I hear you, Tom, about the "coverage" of the election situation. I tried to make sense of MSNBC's reporting and just gave up. While we're having that duel, maybe we need to arm all of the congressmen and justices, too. Have them stand in a circle and keep firing until one is left. Then he/she can be alternate host for David Letterman.

BTW Dave, thanks for spelling Jon Benet's name right. I knew it didn't look right and was pressed for time when I wrote that post.

me gustan muchos sus libros quisiera participar o ser miembro de su red global de espiritualidad no se ingles como podria comunicarnos

I personally don't care anymore who our next president is as I didn't vote for either of these two Bozos in the first place. The idea of a duel to decide the outcome sounds more appealing every day.

Speak of the devil! The major network news has spent the first five minutes since the top of the hour announcing the Supreme Court's decision on the Florida election count and have rattled on ever since with conjecture about what may happen. Missing Frasier because of this but thank God for Fox and That 70's Show, which I forgot to tape tonight.

That should've read "Good because I might be more expressive..."

I guess you don't... For me it's a matter of probability---maybe Dick Skep is someone's real name, but given his general part here, I think it's not. Cathy is not a very interesting fake name, imo :-)But it is all really neither here nor there I suppose--what's in a name, after all? For me personally, however, I prefer to at least start off genuine (as Dave mentioned) by giving my name correctly :-) I know that it doesn't necessarily mean everything I say is genuine --which is why I say I guess it's really neither here nor there :-) Just expressing my preference as Carol did. BTW, LOVE your work ;-)

Cathy

Another thing about news coverage, especially the major networks, is that they are almost carbon copies of each other, with perhaps slight differences in which stories are aired first. Same applies with the local news on the three or four stations that cover it.

I know the news wires are a major source of world news and the networks follow the wires to some extent, but with all the crews covering such things as the OJ trial, I have to wonder who decides something is newsworthy. Same with Elian and Jon Benet and Susan Smith. Where is the variety? Isn't there more to report?

My take on what this forum is about? It says above,"To encourage the exchange of thoughts about Deepak Chopra and his work." Well, since there is no moderator and the precedent was set years ago, I say anything goes. Or as Deepak would say, "Infinite Possibilities."

Sorry Dave, I missed that. We've only had Comedy Central for a couple of years now.

I don't mind a little humor in the reporting, it's the constant repetition and speculation that goes on now when the coverage is live and there is nothing new to report that bugs me the most. The first time I noticed it was when the space shuttle blew up. Reporters continually asking questions like, "How did you feel to see your teacher blow up?" How do you think they felt stupid? And replay after replay of the accident until the image is burned into our minds. I visualized it just now as I wrote that last sentence.

More recently, I feel that news people abuse their position as they often fail to refrain form slanting the news toward their personal views. Unless they are an editorial commentator, the reporting of news should be neutral. And most recently are the last few elections, when they start speculating on the returns before all the people in the western side of this country have had a chance to vote.

Crown/Harmony Books

Comments by users are not endorsed by Random House. The Deepak Chopra Forum is intended to provide a place for the exchange of information, opinions, and comments. Random House does not necessarily endorse, support, sanction, encourage, verify, or agree with the comments, opinions, or statements posted in the Forum. Any information or material placed online, including advice and opinions, are the views of those who post the statements, and does not necessarily represent the views of Random House. Privacy Policy