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Actually, I remember reading somewhere that if we did have to direct all of those processes consciously nono of us could sustain the level of concentration that would be required on an ongoing basis.

Makes you wonder ...

(In my darker days, I used to wonder what the 'suicide' rate would be if one could consciously choose to stop one's heart from beating :)

Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra

That should restore the balance. Actually, I have to admit, for all the time I've spent here I've only read excerpts of Deepak's books and never had the ready cash to attend one of his events. :)

I've been enjoying reading Quantum Healing, which I borrowed from the library. It has drawn my attention to how much goes on in our bodies without our conscious direction - digestion, respiration, circulation, maintaining brain and blood chemistry, healing minor aches and wounds, purifying the blood, and whatever else the major organs and cells in our bodies do on an ongoing basis. It's only when somethin goes seriously awry that any of us tend to think about these things ... :)

Counting the number of cells in the human body is no easier than counting the number of people in the world, but the accepted estimate is 50 trillion, or about 10,000 times the Earth's present population. Isolated and placed under a microscope, the various kinds of cells - heart, liver, brain. kidney, et cetera - look rather alike to the untrained eye. A cell is basically a bag, enclosed by an outer membrane, the cell wall, and filled with a mixture of water and swirlig chemicals. At the centre of all but red blooc cells is a core, the nucleus, which safe-guards the twisted coils of DNA. If you hold a speck of liver tissue on your fingertip, it looks like a calf's liver; you would be hard-pressed to discern that it is specifically human. Even a skilled geneticist would detect only a 2 percent difference between our DNA and a gorilla's. Of the liver cell's many functions, over five hundred at latest count, you would not have a clue simply by looking at it.

As clouded as the mind-body issue has become, one thing is indisputable: somehow human cells have evolved to a state of formidable intelligence. At any one time, the number of activities being co-ordinated in our bodies is quite literally infinite. Like the Earth's ecosystems, our physiology appears to operate in separate compartments that in fact are invisibly connected: we eat, breathe, talk, think, digest our food, fight off infections, purify our blood of toxins, renew our cells, discard wastes, vote for republicans, and much more besides. Each of these activities weaves its way into the fabric of the whole. (Our ecology is more planet-like than most people realise. Creatures roam our surface, as unmindful of our hugeness as we are of their minuteness. Colonies of mites, for example, spend their entire life cycle on our eyelashes.)

Within the body's vast array, the functions of any single cell - such as one of the 15 billion neurons in the brain - fill a good-sized medical text. The volumes devoted to any one system of the body, such as the immune system, take up several shelves in a medical library.

The healing mechanism resides somewhere within this overall complexity, but it is elusive. There is no organ of healing. How does the body know what to do when it is damaged, then? Medicine has no simple answer ...

- Quantum Healing by Deepak Chopra

Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra Deepak Chopra

Dave, you may not have noticed but Silvia passed thru the 55555 without a mention.

I know you have a liking for trivial numbers and stats so here goes...

A random sample of the last 400 posts or the last 10 days revealed the following facts.

There were a total of 35 posters which included DaveR, Peggy, Bob F, Bob, Kate, Geoff, to, Chris V, Cathy, Patricia, D2, Cara, Silvia, Carol, Brad, Tom G, Hadi, Lennie, Mark, Archie Shoma, Pilar Avery, Richard Nordeen, D.F., Greek Chorus, Digital Chainsaw, Popey, Pooka, Anaskash, Anni, s.catley, Need Advice, Hypocrite, Sage, F2, and yours truely. Hope I missed no one out.

Obviously some of my fellow masked posters are duplicated like me and normally post as someone else. However, just taking this sample, that makes an average of about 11 posts per head if everyone posted equally.

But they don't.

Of the 400 posts surveyed the proportions were:

1st place, with 100 posts, Dave Rushing.

2nd Place, with 58 votes went surprisingly to Carol.

And in third placeeasing Bob out by one post was Brad with 29.

The others read as follows:

Bob F with 28
Peggy 23
Cathy 22
Kate 20
Geoff 15
Yours truely with 12
Hadi 10
Chris 7
and the others also ran.

There waere a total of 64,985 words, of which a quarter, that's more than 16,200 units of verbage belonged to DaveR and 4,322 belonged to Carol.

The word Dave, excluding the posting identifier appeared more than 100 times and poor old Deepak Chopra only got a mention five times.

I'm proud of you, Dave. hehe...

Haven't been reading the Forum a whole lot recently. Thanks, Sylvia for the wonderful photos!

One good turn deserves another. I found a site a while back which has gorgeous photos of Ireland - click here

Thanks again. :)

"Where are we going?", said Pooh hurrying after him and wondering whether it was to be an Explore or a What-shall-I-do-about-you-know-what.

"Nowhere," said Christopher Robin.

So they began going there, and after they had walked a little way, Christopher Robin said:

"What do you like doing best in the world, Pooh?"

(And of course, what Pooh liked doing best was going to Christopher Robin's house and eating, but since we've aready quoted that, we don't think we need to quote it again.)

"I like that too," said Christopher Robin, "but what i like doing best is Nothing."

"How do you do Nothing?" asked Pooh, after he had wondered for a long time.

"Well, it's what people call out at you just as you're going off to do it, What are you going to do, Christopher Robin, and you say, Oh, Nothing, and then you go and do it."

"Oh, I see," said Pooh.

"This is a nothing sort of thing that we're doing now."

"Oh, I see," said Pooh again.

"It means just going along, listening to all the things you can't hear, and not bothering.

Chuang-tse put it this way:

Consciousness wandered North to the land of Dark Waters and climbed the Unnoticeable Slope, where he met the Speechless Non-Doer. "I have three questions for you," Consciousness said, "First, what thoughts and efforts will lead us to understanding the Tao? Second, where must we go and what must we do to find peace in the Tao? Third, from what point must we start and which road must we follow in order to reach the Tao? Speechless Non-Doer gave him no answer.

Consciousness traveled South to the land of the Bright Ocean and climbed the mountain of Certainty, where he met the Impulsive Speech-Maker. He asked him the same three questions. "Here are the answers," Impulsive Speech-Maker replied. But as soon as he started to speak, he became confused and forgot what he was talking about.

Consciousness returned to the palace and asked the Yellow Emperor, who told him, "To have no thought and put forth no effort is the first step towards understanding the Tao. To go nowhere and do nothing is the first step towards finding peace in the Tao. To start from no point and follow no road is the first step towards reaching the Tao."

What Chuang-tse, Christopher Robin and Pooh are describing is the Great Secret, the key that unlocks the doors of wisdom, happiness and truth. What is that magic, mysterious something? Nothing. To the Taoist, Nothing is something, and Something - at least the sort of thing that many consider to be important - is really nothing at all. Our explanation of this will attempt to give some sort of indication of what the Taoists call T'ai Hsu, the "Great Nothing".

We will begin with an illustration from the writing of Chuang-tse:

On his way back from the K'un-lun Mountains, the Yellow Emperor lost the dark pearl of Tao. He sent Knowledge to find it, but Knowledge was unable to understand it. He sent Distant Vision, but Distant Vision was unable to see it. He sent Eloquence, but Eloquence was unable to describe it.

Finally, he sent Empty Mind, and Empty Mind came back with the pearl.

- from The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff

Well worth a read if you see it anywhere ...

BTW, Terry, I sent you an email. Lemme know if it didn't arrive. :)

Hadi, I ran across this post while tooling back through "memory lane" and called it to Peggy's attention, and asked her permission to re-post it here:

On Sunday, July 19, 1998, Peggy ()@207.223.182.62 said:

Hadi, I understand well why you posted here about the bridge between Katie and me. It worked! :)

Just to share a bit of synchronicity with all of you, I received two birthday gifts in the mail from forum friends. Both of them were butterflies -- one gold and one silver. In addition, on both of the days that the butterflies arrived, I was visited on my front porch by a monarch butterfly -- my favorite. I have not seen one since I was a child."

Just to let you know, Hadi, that truth is important, regardless of who's right.

Namaste'

by the way, is it too late? :)

actually, Bob, i posted here that i would like to be on the list but i don't think you saw it.

Carol - Come to think of it, I don't think you were in on our Synchro Destiny tape sharing program - or am I wrong?

Namasté

Sylvia / Carol - You are entirely welcome on the tapes, it was my pleasure.

Dave R - Sandy, my wife, drove 35 miles, two times a day, back and forth from our home in North East New Jersey to Radio City Music Hall in NYC (where she worked) for 15 years or so. She got used to it and would work on the hands free car phone while she was going back and forth.

Personally, I never liked it when I hitched a ride with her even though she did the brunt of the driving. Too hectic and too much road rage for my tastes. Taos is much more my style.

Namasté

We had a visit last night from the woman who used to be our nextdoor neighbor, along with a couple of her friends, and we spent much of the evening discussing travel. She moved to the NYC area a while back and appears to have adapted to the fast-pace lifestyle of that part of the country. We showed them the intro to "The Sopranos" and they were able to identify every frame as to its actual location in New Jersey, and the conversation expanded to the difficulties of getting around in those heavily populated areas.

Our travels have been planned, as nuch as possible, to be off the interstates and away from the large metropolitan snarls. We like backroads, little towns, and mostly countryside, as seen from the "blue highways." Every time I have to negotiate the six-lane (and up) roads I get white-knuckled and defensive. How people manage to do that day in and day out just plain escapes me. Even the Middle Tennessee situation is such that I avoid interstates to get across town, and rely instead on those "secret passages" and shortcuts that I have learned over time. Sitting in traffic just isn't why I was put here! :-)

How many of you respond to urban traffic that way? How many are totally at ease with it? How many don't even think about it anymore?

Patricia -- that Christmas invitation sounds great, if we hadn't already made plans for this Christmas. And the big get-together of Forum Friends is also something we should make further plans for. There was an attempt for a follow-up gathering in Summer 1998, but it fell through. There have been any number of smaller meetings of people from here. I can think of at least five that I have heard about. But if there's been one with as many as were at Fall Creek Falls (TN) in 1997, I haven't heard of it.

Your descriptions of your area remind me a great deal of the Camden Maine situation. The Penobscot Bay area has many islands like the ones in your area, and people like Kirstie Alley, John Travolta, Don McLean, and so on, have at least summer homes in that place. It might make for some fun speculation on how people who can afford the sanctuary move to the natural hideaways after their careers have blossomed. Considering Robert Redford, Harrison Ford, just off the top of my head, along with those already mentioned, it would seem that the rat-race in the congested urban areas just gets too much for the more sensitive types and the escape to pristine areas is almost part of the career arc so many have taken. If you consider Brando and his South Sea island, the pattern has to be an older one. How many famous types can we think of who have "gotten away from it all" to these naturally wild areas?

Considering that we here at this forum are scattered all over the globe, and if we try to find a "population center" for all of us, I wonder where on earth that might be. Given that Brad and Geoff are in Australia, at least five that I know of are in Northern Europe, at least one in Brazil, another in Mexico, several from one end of Canada to the other, and the ones in the USA from New England to Southern California, and from Florida to Washington with at least ten of us further inland, I think it would be a "networking nightmare" to try to locate a spot that is near the "center" of where we all live.

That brings on another fun thing to consider, in my mind, and that's what "common bond" can be found between our locations and our interest in the topics discussed here. Is there any real relationship, or is it mostly a matter of "everybody got to be someplace"?

Hi Patricia, great to see you here.Recently I saw a documentary about the Galapogos Islands.The people presenting the show discussed how the animals were not afraid of humans because they had not been exposed to the dangers they might present because of the remote geographical location.They said that the animals would come right up to the people's tents and start pecking or pulling at the food & stuff. I thought that was neat.It made me think of going there one day.They also filmed parts of the Island that looked like ancient earth would have looked years ago.It looked so rugged & natural.Nature inspires me and I like the idea of watching animals close up in their element.I know that many believe that animals and trees are of a lower order, but I'm not of that philosophy. I view trees as friends.They filter the air and make my world beautiful. I guess that makes me a tree hugging hippy lover as Eric Cartmen would say.

Sylvia! That was so nice of you to post those photos! As lovely as they are I am afraid they do not do justice to the beauty of this place. It is one of two places I have been where I can honestly say that nature takes first place over the human. The other is the Galapogos Islands. The deer roam all over the place here and while they can be a nuisance they do come first. I have also never seen any litter anywhere. The recycle depot here takes almost everything and everyone goes there. There is a deep respect for the beauty and wildness of this place. I do feel very, very priviledged and utter many "thank you's". Dave and Peggy, I would love to have you come for Christmas! What fun that would be. Why don't we plan another one of those reunions here sometime next summer? My plumber was telling me that this summer he was sitting outside an ice cream shop eating a cone and a man asked "do you mind if I join you? It turned out to be Tom Selleck! Robin Williams is building a house here as is Al Pacino and Barbra Sreisland can often be seen in town in the summer. She moors her big yacht here. Oh darn! Now the secret is out! Nevermind, it would be fun to have you all here. There are some very interesting folks living here and everyone just fits in. Last week-end I attended a workshop here on Restoative Justice. There were over 100 people attending. The police chief said that at least 70% of first offenders are dealt with in this way and make restituion to the community and the victim voluntarily thereby avoiding criminal charges. I offered to volunteer in this programme and came away thinking that this was definitely the kind of community I want to live in. Very special indeed. Good night all. It has been a long day.

I meant 'WITHOUT PENETRATION'.

Peggy - I thought baggygreen.com.au would be a good site for cricket but there aren't many pictures. Good start tho. Brad.

Sylvia-what a talent you have and Patricia what a lucky duck you are to live in such a beutifull place. Keep an eye out for those Blair Witch kids. Peggy i actually meant me. I try not to speack for others. I too need the chemicals, twice a day, but it's not enough.Brad.

I finally know what 'chads' are. How do they get pregnant with complete penitration? Sorry to get racey on ya folks.

Brad, if you have DOS and would like to read Moon and Sixpence, click here.

Nashville has probably changed quite a bit since you were here. The downtown area has been revitalized and 2nd Ave. is the place to be instead of Printer's Alley (which has always been more than a little seedy). So you just have to come back so that you don't think that DaveR and I are necessarily hayseeds.

I read I Heard the Owl Call My Name about fifteen or twenty years ago. (I had forgotten that it was an owl...but I knew something called my name!) I read it while I was working on a reading project for young people.

I will keep an eye out for West Ham when I see that English league soccer is on. Didn't realize that there was the problem that you described with soccer in Austrailia.

One generality that I can safely make about Americans is that we are mostly under-educated about what goes on in other countries. That used to be the fault of the media. But now we have access to international news, the BBC, etc. and have no one to blame but ourselves.

I can imagine what it might be like to have all of those American TV shows in your background instead of Austrailian stories. I have had a similar situation in that most of the movies, TV shows, news stories and political programs of my early years were by and about men. Not all, certainly -- but a disproportionate amount.

You are absolutely right when you say that sometimes people, through no fault of their own, can't make themselves happy. I've been trying to educate people about that very point for a long time. (I had a momentary lapse!) I will add only that no one else can make these people happy either.

I am one of the lucky ones that responds to medication. Before prozac, I didn't have a lasting chance. I think that the prozac allows me to be who I really am, happiness and all.

Still, I am grateful for this place where I don't have to pretend to be light-hearted and happy when I'm not.

That does it! I'm spending Christmas with Patricia! What a gorgeous place! I've always liked places where the mountains meet the sea. It just doesn't get better than that.

Silvia, i love them, too. beautiful place to live, Patricia!

Hi BobF: No I didn't take those photos,but they are fantastic, looks like a hiker took them with a digital camera.If I am not mistaken aren't you the BobF who sent me those tapes a while ago? If you are {{{{Thank you}}}I love them.

Bob F -- it took your calling attention to it for me to realize there were two Bob posts this morning. I'll try to slow down and read names better. That's two errors in almost as many posts.

As for the good thing(s) about Stalin, Bob F, I'm afraid my off-the-cuff reaction was: he's dead!

Sylvia - Great shots of Patricia's new back yard - are you the photographer?

Bob - Welcome. Why not use an initial or something after your name to keep your pearls of wisdom from getting confused with my insignificant morsels.

Dave R - Is there anything good that quickly comes to mind on Stalin? I am having a difficult time thinking of anything.

Namasté

I take it back! Silvia scored the Yahtzee talking to Carol! Sorry, Silvia!

Carol scored the Yahtzee!

Silvia -- looks aren't everything! :-)

DaveR you're funny.

carol I', glad you like the photos. Aren't they great.

Silvia -- How can I doubt that? I guess I either don't notice those telepathy things, or they're not as astounding as yours. :-)

Great posts this morning!

Chris -- I love that parody. Too true!

Richard -- that's one of the best stories to be posted here!

Bob -- too fitting a quote!

Silvia -- utterly fantastic photos! PLEASE leave that site up long enough for me to swipe those shots for screen saver use. I'm totally jealous of your setting, Patricia! My brother, who lives on the Florida Gulf coast, and who is much more the world traveller than I, has said that the Pacific Coast from Northern California northward is the most beautiful country he has seen, even wants to move to the area. He's vacationed in the BC region several times and has some photos like the ones Silvia posted. Fantastic!

DaveR:

I was skimming through the posts and the word telepathy which was in your post stood out. You were saying something to the effect that you do not believe in it. Since you brought up the topic, I'd like to share just a few incidences that happened in the past few days.

I was in a meeting with a client and I decided to call my tech guy to resolve an issue. I lifted the telephone and attempted to dial, but there was no dial tone, instead it was the tech guy calling me. I heard no ring but picked up right at that moment that he was calling me.

Another is that I was writing a letter to a client I hadn't heard from in at least 6 months and in the middle of the letter my computer crashed, so I went out to lunch and when I got back my assistant said she called and left a message while I was at lunch.

Another is the other night my son was out with his friends and I was watching television (not thinking of him) when an image of him came into my head, then a second or two later he walked in the door. (this happens frequently)

Then last night I was talking to my husband and out of the blue I said would you ever like to own a restaurant (I've never wanted to own one and I'm not sure why I asked), He turned  to me quickly and said, "How did you know I was thinking about what it would be like to own a restaurant ?"

This is only a few that happened in the last few days.

To see where Patricia moved to CLICK HERE
I made a little page up to show you a bit of Salt Spring Island,
British Columbia, Canada.

I got this from an email forwarded to me. I thought it was pretty clever and very funny!

AN UNPRESIDENTED SITUATION

'Twas the night of election,
and all through the land,
Having voted for candidates
---some less than grand,

Americans settled back
tired and glad
That they'd seen their last
mindless political ad.

For a while, at least,
there would be no more pandering,
Polling, debating,
evading, or slandering;

All that was left
to close out this campaign
Was to see the votes tallied,
Hawaii to Maine.

The networks began
their election-night blather,
Courtesy Jennings and
Brokaw and Rather.

On a map of the country
each counted the score
Of states that were carried
by Bush and by Gore.

Bush watched as the early
results rolled in;
With each new announcement
he'd shout, with a grin,
"On, Georgia and Texas!
Missouri! Kentucky!
On, Kansas, Dakotas---
Do I feel lucky!"

But his luck didn't hold...
by the dawn's early light,
The race had become
unimaginably tight.

Earlier, Gore---phoning
Bush to concede---
Reinvented himself
in his hour of need,
And called to deny
he was losing---but was he?
As precincts reported,
the math grew more fuzzy.

Next day, all eyes turned,
in the scramble for votes,
To a state known for 'gators
and refugee boats,
Where "beating the Bushes"
for ballots became
In a wink of the eye,
our most popular game.

Then counts became re-counts,
then counting-by-hand;
Lawsuits soon were filed
all over the land,
And media pundits
dispensed useless knowledge
About the archaic electoral college.

So where does this leave us?
What end to this story?
Will our future be "Bush league,"
Or will it be "Gory?"
Or will, as each die-hard
conservative fears,
We just keep Bill Clinton
another four years?

We sit, as it were,
in the heart of a riddle---

A national contest split
right down the middle.
This winner-take-all
constitutional test
Won't tell us if Gore
or if Bush is the best;
The people have spoken,
and said with one voice,
That hey! NEITHER ONE
of these guys was our choice.

This much I suspect:
to his undying shame,
Our next leader will have
right alongside his name
An asterisk, printed
in history's book,
Like the "Monica" mess
and Nixon's "I'm no crook!"

Because, 'midst this storm
of confusion and sins,
The prize has been tainted,
regardless who wins.
Their loss is my gain, though,
In closing I note---
I never have gotten
more return for my vote.

I just read a good book by Jennifer MacDonald called Evolution. Her website is www.densworth.com I mention this because there are some of the basic spiritual principles incorporated into the story, that we talk about.

wonderful story, R! very timely, for me, thanks.

by the way, even though those chads are flying EVERYWHERE in Florida, i managed to keep them out of my potatoes, heh!

A story you've probably heard, but I like it a lot. "There once was a village that had among its people a very wise old man. The villagers trusted this man to provide them answers to their questions and concerns.

One day, a farmer from the village went to the wise man and said in a frantic tone, "Wise man, help me. A horrible thing has happened. My ox has died and I have no animal to help me plow my field! Isn't this the worst thing that could have possibly happened?" The wise old man replied, "Maybe so, maybe not." The man hurried back to the village and reported to his neighbors that the old wise man had gone mad. Surely this was the worst thing that could have happened. Why couldn't he see this?

The very next day, however, a strong young horse was seen near the man's farm. Because the man had no ox to rely on, he had the idea to catch the horse to replace his ox--and he did. How joyful the farmer was. Plowing the field had never been easier. He went back to the wise man of apologize. "You were right, wise man. Losing my ox wasn't the worst thing that could have happened. It was a blessing in disguise! I never would have captured my new horse had that not happened." The wise man replied once again, "Maybe so, maybe not." Not again, thought the farmer. Surely the wise man had gone mad now.

A few days later the farmers son was riding the horse and was thrown off. He broke his leg and would not be able to help with the crop. Oh no, thought the man. Now we will starve to death. Once again, the farmer went to the wise man. This time he said, "How did you know that capturing my horse was not a good thing? You were right again. My son is injured and won't be able to help with the crop. This time I'm sure that this is the worst thing that could have happened. You must agree, this time." But, just as he had done before, the wise man calmly looked at the farmer and in a compassionate tone replied once again,"Maybe so, maybe not." Enraged that the wise man could be so ignorant, the farmer stormed back into the village.

The next day troops arrived to take every able-bodied young man to the war that had just broken out. The farmers son was the only young man in the village who didn't have to go. He would live, while the others would surely die.

Namaste'

"It is enough that the people know that there was an election.
The people who cast the votes decide nothing.
The people who count the votes decide everything."
--Joseph Stalin

Brad, I'm glad to see you dismiss the notion of "typical Australian" and "typical ______" as chauvinism. That's just what it is.

That bit about "flavor of the month" rings true as well, and is one of those unfortunate consequences of the consumerism that drives tastes. We could probably spend much time and effort discussing the fads that have come and gone in our lifetimes. Just this week we had a discussion with Peg's sister and her husband (they're just a little older than us, so have even more of those to consider) about the old TV commercials and how they're like songs and fragrances in that as soon as you see an old one you can almost recall the way the room looked and the clothes you were wearing when that was being played as "first run." How they come and go.

Weird that you were in Nashville in the 80's! Peg and I met in 85. See what I mean about that "six degrees of separation" thing? I bet you met somebody here that we know!

DaveR spacey was also in LOOKING FOR RICHARD. He is briliant. I'll ponder your questions.

I meant 'definatly not typical'. It wasn't as long as I thought. Still, I'll write tommorow. I'm hooked.

EVAN IF I USE SPECIFIC NAMES, PLEASE ALL FEEL FREE TO READ!!!!!!

I was beginning to think that the Thanks Giving hangover had got to ya’ll. Lots of great posts and good questions. Here goes.

Learn to make yourself happy.

That’s too tuff, Peggy. Just can’t do it. You’re spot on with the rest of it tho. Nashville – I was there in ’80, Printers Alley, felt Patsy’s spirit in the Ryman Auditorium (?spelling). I love soccer. I follow a London team WEST HAM. They are an urban, working class (at least in origin) team who always attack. I wanted to talk to Hadi about them but I don’t think he’s in the mood. The culture thing is too big I’ll get to it.

What the hell was MOON ON A SIXPENCE about? Hell got me into trouble over there, see it’s not a bad word here. Not like there. When I saw THE DEER HUNTER (DaveR I was talking about the DEER HUNTER) I felt that it was truly an ‘anti war’ movie. APOCOLYPSE NOW was too but with the groovy sound track and it wasn’t as effective in that way. FOR ME. You had the catch cries like ‘I love the smell of napalm…’ etc. And the DH brought it back to the futility and the effect it had on so many lives back home. Australia was also in Vietnam but as I’ve said we can’t glorify as well as Hollywood. That is not an insult.

You’re right about Thanks Giving. We often do wonder when is the appropriate time to put up the deccies. Shame you didn’t make it here but you might not have met Dave and besides, our dollar is half the value of yours at the moment so you can have a holiday for half price and when you exchange your money you get double so come on down!!! All ya’ll!!!

Patricia-Did you ever read a book called I HEARD THE OWL CALL MY NAME? It’s set in BC, which is near you, I think. It’s just great. I’m very envious.

Annie – namasté.

DaveR - I am probably the wrong person to ask re culture because I have very strong views on the subject and I am defiantly not ‘typical’. There is offcourse no ‘typical’ Australian or American, Italian, Mexican etc. The term is really a form of chauvinism. AUS is one of the most urbanised countries in the world yet all of our PR would suggest that we all live in the midst of an ochre coloured dessert. Or desert if you like. One thing is tho, we can access the ‘bush’ very easily but comparatively few of us do. We are also very ‘Multicultural’. More Maltese live in Melbourne than in Malta. But that raises the nationalism debate.

Peggy one of the problems with Australian Soccer is that it’s seen as an ‘ethnic’ game. A common term here is ‘wog ball’. This is partly because we have a great deal of ethnic enclaves here and most of the team were given names based on the ethnicity of the community in which the team was based. All manner of problems ensued. I don’t have the space to do this subject justice.

Remember, we have only 19 million people in the space of mainland USA.

One of my big problems with American capitalism is the concept of Cultural Imperialism. You see, when Australians reminisce about old TV shows and Songs they are usually the same as the ones you reminisce about. Lets see; I Love Lucy, Mr ED, Gommer Pile, Bonanza, The Brady Bunch, etc, etc, etc. When we sing we sing in American accents. We seem to be flavour of the month at the moment and if that helps us trade then great but on a personal level I really don’t give a rat’s freckle whether the rest of the world is interested in us or not.

I see our popular culture as extremely sycophantic. If something that happens in Australia makes the news in the US. The fact that it made the News in the US, makes the News here and we’re supposed to sit there and feel good that you noticed us. As you know I love many things American but I must always step back and try to be objective. Australian film will never come of age until AUSTRALIAN ceases to be a genre. By the way, RAOD WORRIOR is actually called MAD MAX. I haven’t seen it for a while but there are some quasi Am accents in there. More later. Oops, almost fell of my soapbox.

Brad, for a bit more detail on Namaste, click here for a comprehensive article that provides a good context for its usage.

Brad, earlier you said that you have known what you want to be since "that movie" but I'm confused as to "which movie" you meant: "The Razor's Edge" or "The Deer Hunter"? I've seen both, and two entirely different ideas come to mind, depending on which you were referring to. I'm assuming Razor, based on other comments about it and Maugham. But the thing about DeNiro supports the Deer Hunter, too. Color me dense!

Patricia, I checked my atlas for your new location and it does look like a spectacular place to be. I have seen photos of that region, and your description of your setting sounds inviting and gorgeous. I'm happy for you. Thanks for those details.

I know how much of a sore point it is for some of you, but I can't help noticing the post counts here! Since hitting 55000, there have been four "full houses" of 55111, 55222, 55333, 55444, and within the next 18 posts we'll have a Yahtzee! Who will be the lucky player to post the big 55555?

Brad, just in case you may not be familiar with IMDB (Internet Movie DataBase), this link has their overview page for entries in their database for movies having something or other to do with Australia, either setting, filming location, performer's birthplace, or whatever. It makes a great source for "remembering" details about movies and such.

What's you basic impression of "Crocodile Dundee" as the "typical Australian"? My bet is that he's as Australian as Gomer Pyle is the "typical Southerner." :-)

Brad, I don't believe all that much in telepathy so I consider what has transpired between us to be a bit of individual poking around in our respective brains to find worthy topics to continue to discuss. No matter what it actually was/is, I had meant to ask you questions that your latest longish post answered! The thing about how Australians see the culture of the USA, especially movies and performers, as well as how well USA-made films in Australia deal with the "feel" of Australia from the point of view of the "natives," were both things I wanted to know more about. There are no telling how many movies I have seen either set in Australia or set so that Australia is the "setting" (but probably filmed in Hollywood). The first one I can think of off the top of my head would be "On The Beach" when I was in college. A truly upsetting and sad theme, but with Hollywood performers. More recently, "Quigley Down Under," "Breaker Morant," "Gallipoli," "Road Warrior," "Sirens," "Oscar and Lucinda," and dozens more, are examples I'd like your take on as far as grasping the spirit of Australian views and "way of life" is concerned. Do these films reflect an Australian attitude and point of view, or are they more "Americanized" and beyond belief by Australians?

The basis of this question is that movies made about (and even in) the portion of the USA where I have spent my life so far, known as "the South," have, for the most part, been caricatures and lampoons of our way of life. Notable exceptions may include "Fried Green Tomatoes," "Steel Magnolias," "To Kill A Mockingbird," and some others where the condescension isn't a dominant theme. I just wonder how that issue comes across to you and your friends as far as Australia is concerned.

The thing about Hopper, Dean, and DeNiro made me curious if there's an "actor's actor" of the current generation more influential than Kevin Spacey. Just where "the current generation" leaves off and older ones begin is an interesting subtheme, but the movies being made these days (let's say since 1998, just for a time break) are dominated by actors who are of a different slate from the ones of ten years ago. I guess as long as they're active and "big ticket" today, they ought to qualify for this discussion, but I have yet to see an actor (male) of Spacey's depth and breadth to compare at his level. I think he deserves all the praise and accolades he's getting these days. Sean Penn, Brad Pitt, Edward Norton, Russell Crowe, Samuel Jackson, Don Cheadle, John C. Reilly, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Joe Mantegna, Jeff Bridges, and dozens more, are competent and versatile guys, but I can't think of anybody as convincing in the range of roles they've played as Spacey. Can you?

Our Thanksgiving was great! My daughter's kids were away with their grandparents (not Peg and me -- we're just one of several pairs of grandparents) so the "adults" had some "quiet time" together for the first time in a long while. We could feel the energy of the absent kids from time to time as we chit-chatted about all sorts of stuff and got into some bridge for the first time in a very long while for me. The same area where I had played countless games in my college days with my daughter's mother and some of our friends was now populated by a new pair of generations. It was a fun evening!

How thrilling to see posts from Annie, Silvia, Geoff, Patricia, Peggy (!), Brad, Kate, Cara, Lennie, Bob F, Richard, Sharon, and Carol since my last post.

Thanks, Patricia, for the update on your move to the new time zone, and for confirming the old one.

Glad things perked up for you, Lennie.

Tantalizing post, Geoff!

Brad to make the little 'thingy' over the e hold down the ALT key while you hit 1-3-0 on the keypad to the right of your keyboard.

Hope everyone in the states had a wonderful Thanksgiving. How many ate to much this year? :-)

Thanks DaveR

Great stuff, kids. Keep it up. :)

Here's a little somethin I have been working on in my 'spare' time. It may give some indication of where-I'm-at just at the moment. :)

Today's mantra is sponsored by Synthetico, makers of the world's finest and least harmful artificial food additives. This mantra is the result of over one thousand years of intensive self-exploration by Indian and Tibetan mystics, with a little help from the plumber down the street.

I've been a naughty boy or girl
I've squandered many hours in this world
I sometimes complain about rainy weather
Won't someone come over and tickle me with a feather

For best results, this mantra should be taken with every meal and keep out of the reach of children - you never know where they've been or what they've been doing.

Medical authorities warn that there is a chance that some people might become addicted to this mantra and that it may cause irreversible ego-loss and an inability to indulge in conflict so use it with care.

I am prepared to offer a full money-back gurantee for the first 100 customers. If you're not completely satisfied within ten lifetimes you will get your money back as long as I am still present in this three-dimensional level of existence. Now, I can't be fairer than that, can I?

A few people may experience an adverse reaction to this mantra, especially if you have a genetic predisposition or if your DNA has been radically modified by alien abduction or from watching too much television. For these people, I would recommend the following:

I am a fuzzy little dot - sometimes cold and sometimes hot - I do not really need a lot - now I know just what is what

But don't just take my word for it. Here are some genuine testimonials from all over the globe:

"I was very skeptical at first when a friend recommended these mantras to me. Quite frankly I thought all this spiritual stuff was a bunch of hooey. But then I started using the mantras in the evenings when I had finished coating my windows with honey and the results were amazing. I started to feel all warm and fuzzy inside and my head started spinning. I felt my consciousness expanding into regions that I would never have previously dared to imagine. My dreams became expanded and elaborately symbolic experiences as my soul traveled far beyond the boundaries of this plane of existence. Even my hair started to grow again and it changed from a lifeless greyish hue back to its original colour of jet black. After a few weeks, even my friends started to notice the changes in me. They would say to me, 'Mate, we are starting to notice a definite change. All your atoms have been re-arranged. Your personality has improved at a sub-atomic level. You're such a charming and unforgettable fellow.' Next year, I will travel the world teaching these mantras to anyone who will listen. Even my psychiatrist thinks it's a good idea. I can never fully express my gratitude to the universe for leading me to these mantras. I feel like a new man. I have even heard rumours that the Republican party want me to take over the presidency in case anything untoward should happen to George W Bush. I heartily recommend these mantras to anyone who is on the verge of having an interesting life. They will definitely tip you over the edge ... into a pool of wonderment which human words can scarcely describe. I couldn't be happier. Well, that's not quite true - I could be happier but they would probably lock me away."
- Mr. Arpoch of southern Iraq

"Before I started using these mantras, I was a lonely and very sad person. Now I'm just as happy as can be and I owe it all to the wonderful people who created these powerful and magical words. I will never be the same again."
- Mrs. Anne O'Nymous of Pascoe Vale

"I was a total dork before I first encountered these mantras. Now I'm very popular with the ladies and my dog doesn't run away anymore. I'm ever so grateful."
- Arthur Dork of Florida

These are just a few of the wonderful success stories we have faithfully recorded in crayon out in the back of our shop. You're welcome to visit us anytime except on Sunday afternoons because that's when we have our nap. We wish all our future customers all the best and remember the words of Gandhi, "Okay, who's the smart-alec who stole my shoes? When I find him I will wring his neck!" (Note: this was before he started a daily course of chanting instead of ranting. More evidence that our products really do work.)

All jokes aside, these mantras really can help transform your life. But if you want to live out your days limited and constricted then you have the free will to make that choice also. Pleasant Dreams.

To any customers who are experiencing difficulty with our do-it-to-yourself levitation kit, we apologise.

Update -

I had a very pleasant dream last night in which my angelic friends revealed to me that the following mantra may prove quite useful for certain people (no pun intended). "I am the awkwardness of life".

I have also just received another wonderful testimonial from Mrs. Penelope Drops who lives in Southern Whales.

"I am writing to express my appreciation and gratitude for your mantras. They confirm what i have always secretly suspected. Namely, that the biggest mistake that most people make is to confine their exploration of reality to the tiny region known as 'normality'. I find that I experience best results when I recite these mantras silently in my mind as I go about my daily affairs. They are particularly helpful during many seemingly mundane or repetitive chores like brushing the grass or counting the leaves on my oak tree.

I repeat the words over-and-over until they literally have no meaning. As we all know, the experience of ultimate reality resides beyond the reach of mere words. Even my husband has opened his mind and he uses these mantras while he is washing the dishes and let me tell you, our plates have never looked more sparkling or hygienic.

I have even started to devise my own mantras which is something i would recommend to everyone because each individual's consciousness is unique and what works for me may prove useless to somebody else. My favourite creation so far is "YO-YAPPIT-YO". It may seem quite simple at first glance but i find it extremely effective in keeping disharmonious thoughts at bay as well as warding off alien invasions. I haven't been abducted for over a month now. I'm so full of gratitude I could burst."

(P.S. As I write, I am working on a variation of this mantra - something along the general theme of "YO-YAPULATED-YO-YAP". I will keep you notified as to any significant breakthroughs. My husband has also started reading an ancient Tibetan text which mentions the following phrase, "What is my little puppy", which is said to be highly benevolent and beneficial whether or not you happen to own a doggie. I, personally, would like to see the human race evolve beyond this silly concept of ownership but that's a story for another time. Thanks again.)

Penny is quite right in many of her observations and really to achieve the greatest expansion of consciousness requires a person to completely let go of any concept of 'rehearsal' or 'recitation'. This takes time and dedication to practice and an absolute commitment to plink the way of lifetimes.

Peggy, your wise and loving words to Needs Advice are perfect! There is nothing more one needs to say. To all of you who responded so wisely ....you are kind and caring people. That is what brings me back here week after week, the compassion and wisdom shared by so many in your own way. You are "soul friends". Dave, you wondered about time zones and where we all are? Well I am now living about as far west as you can get in Canada, on the Pacific coast on an island in the strait of Georgia. It is exquisitely beautiful and I feel so very blessed. It was a big move for me and one which in retrospect, required some courage but I believed it was right and I still do almost four months later. Ontario {where I moved from} is knee deep in snow right now and here the flowers are still in bloom. Yesterday I maintained eye contact with a bald eagle for over five minutes. He was amazing and flew off with a large branch in his beak. You would all be envious of the view from my office. As I write this I can see the boats on the ocean and the mountains behind. It is not hard to find God here. More later. I hope all you Americans had your fill of turkey and celebrated your many blessings. Great to see you back here Cara! How are you?

Brad, Of Human Bondage is about the man with the club foot. I've never read much Conrad -- maybe a short story or two like "The Secret Sharer." But Apocalypse Now is the most effective war movie that I have ever seen. I've watched it several times. It's sort of a penance I pay for being the general age of most of the men who went to Vietnam. And seeing it the first time enabled me, finally, to grieve for what we lost.

I certainly think that there are far too many myths about the USA that are perpetuated by the media. There is no typical American. Those who try to encapsulate us show their ignorance. That's probably true of most countries, don't you think?

When I was a young woman, I wanted to live in Austrailia -- in Canberra. I had a sponsor, the Austrailian government was going to give me a little money if I would promise to stay three years, my papers were in order and I had arranged for passage on a freighter. And I can't even remember why I changed my mind. But one thing leads to another...

I can't imagine life without Thanksgiving Day. How else do you know when the Christmas holidays start?

I've always wanted to see a game of cricket. Maybe when I visit a cousin in Cornwall. Do you like soccer? I had never paid much attention until the last World Cup. Now I'm hooked. Pro football is a big deal in Nashville. Until last year we had never had a major professional sports team. Now the city is absolutely rabid!

Need Advice:

Like you, I love romantic gestures. From time to time my husband, DaveR, surprises me just the way he did today with with those words that make me feel sixteen again.

But all of the romantic gestures in the world can't begin to give the satisfaction that hard-earned day-to-day love brings. It is working through all of the very non-romantic moments that builds love to last a life time.

I suspect that you and I like those romantic gestures because we want to feel good about ourselves. The trick is to learn to feel good about ourselves without depending on feedback from someone else. Besides, if we have to "prompt" them to be romantic, the gestures lose some of their meaning.

A lack of romantic actions on his part does not mean that he doesn't love you deeply. And, as Sharon said, the gestures themselves don't have real meaning.

I think that it's good that you have told him what you like. But you are the only one who knows whether it is worth the time and effort to accept his unromantic nature.

The book The Road Less Travelled helped me to understand the nature of love early in my marriage. I think that the author is M. Scott Peck and a copy should be easy to find if you are so inclined.

Learn to make yourself happy.

How do you spell drinking?

Thanks Richard.

Ta Carol. Namaste. How do you do the little thing on the 'e'. Sorry it's the content, not the form.

Maybe there's a god above,

but all I ever learned from love

was how to shoot somebody

who outdrew ya.

Jeff Buckly.

Dear Need ADVICE, I am a man. I am not all men. Romance? Different things to different people. I don't think it has much to do with love at all. The expectation you're making is for him to fit into your idea of what romance is. Roses on the pillow are all well and good but what about deinking beer in your pajamas? (How do you spell pajamas?) What I'm saying is that if you asked him for some of his favourite memories of your time so far you might find the romance in there somewhere. Don't get too hung up on the form, look for the content.

Make sense? Brad.

Belated Happy Thanksgiving! Just returned from the annual "Orphan's Dinner," mostly Greeks and Cypriots this year, with one Malaysian. We'll have to find more for New Year's!

Thank you Dave,for sending your best wishes to me this Thanksgiving holiday!

Love and the same to all of you tonight!

Cara ~

happy new baby! d2 and mom. the last guest is gone and dishes are done. Thanks everyone I feel better just knowing someone wants me to feel better isn't it funny how that works.I am off to the thanksgiving auction the biggest one of the year.and by the way I will have you all over for dinner real soon.Love to all. Lennie

Happy Thanksgiving to One and All

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO EVERYONE!!!!!

Carol, may your potatoes be free of "chads". Did anyone know that word/definition before this month?

Denis and Co., congratulations--enjoy and love!!

Lennie, hope you find joy in those supporting you. Everyone here is "rooting" for you.

Brad, hang in there. It will work out, I had a number of years of un/underemployment--just keep plugging and "don't give up, five minutes before the miracle." Worked for me.

Happy Holiday, Namaste', and Love-Light&Laughs for everyone!!!

Hello gang and love to all!

Dave - What a wonderful post, I could feel the glow of your appreciation and satisfaction all the way up here in Vancouver.

Dennis, Dorret and family, may I add my congratulations as well on the addition to your family. (and a belated birthday wish as well)

Need advice - You sound like you are feeling unloved and uncherished - this is probably not the case at all. Some (most) men just don't feel comfortable making the kind of gestures you describe. If you look closely I bet you will see other things he is doing that are showing how much he cares. My husband of thiry years would never do any of those things but I know that if a grizzly bear or tiger was attacking me he would come and defend me regardless of the threat to himself. There are probably other things he is doing that he thinks shows how much he loves you - If you look closely you will find them. Please never make the mistake of being envious of other relationships where this sort of thing (romantic gestures) take place. (SOme of the most romantic looking relationships turn out to be the most short lived or are not what they seem below the surface). My husband feels he is somehow making himself vulnerable (?) and less of a man to me (more feminine) if he was putting roses around. Remember your relationship is unique. Hope this helps

Sharon

hi Brad, others will post it better but Namasté basically means that i bow to the good in you.

dear Needs, reading your post all i could think was maybe you don't love him enough to accept him the way he is. and i wondered if you could tell us what you feel good about him? and why those things were not valued by you?

here's wishing for a Happy Thanksgiving Day to all my Forum Friends!! :) :)

Hi, Everyone. I posted here a long time ago and so much has happened since then. Beautiful things infact. However I find myself in a situation and need some advice. I am in a relationship with someone. I long for romance in our relationship and allthough I have made every effort from my side to have romantic moments with him, it feels like I am doing this alone. I am not expecting much...a flower on my pillow, a whisper in my ear, a candle, a note. I have brought this to his attention and told him that it was important to me. Hence me doing romantic things to him because I also know that if you want something you can't wait for someone else to do it, especially if they aren't that way inclined. My point is really that for the first time in a long time, I am actually doubting myself. I have become insecure because I have beautiful people around me whom give me so much love, support and even try to romance me but the person I really want it from (my relationship) is not giving it to me. Am I being unreasonable, or don't I love him enough to accept that he will never be romantic ... should I make a choice to leave him based on this? Please help if you can. Namaste!

DaveR- burning the midnight oil? I'm lost in the timezone thing again. Very nice sentiment, mate. Happy Thanks Giving.

Summer in the land of OZ means cricket. You don’t have to be a great fan of the game to benefit. A TEST MATCH will last three to four days, at the end of which you may not have a definitive result. But it is one of the few games where the journey is much more important than the destination. This season we are playing host to the West Indies, historically one of the most fearsome cricketing nations in the world. Are they a nation? During the eighties and early nineties we would dread the arrival of these fast bowling, quick batting style masters from the ‘New World’. Simply put, they use to flog us.

The tables have turned in the last ten years or so and now the depth is missing and although always outwardly confident, the calypso cavaliers are not producing the goods. Never mind, after all the misery we endured they deserve a little humility. Unfortunately their lack of form makes our victories somewhat hollow. How I would love to see, in the true spirit of the game, a truly great West Indian team get the pants belted off them by a truly great Australian side. I love the West Indians. This is a real Australian summer.

The best part about cricket offcourse is the fact that for four or five days, every couple of weeks, there is an alternative to the ‘daytime drivel’ that we put up with or ignore or prostrate ourself, in worship, to. It’s also on radio. It’s pervasive and unifying. Although the players are all male the fan base is gender neutral and demographically undefinable.

What about Joseph Conrad? You know HEART OF DARKNESS? He was actually trying to write APOCOLYPSE NOW but it was too big a project. He also wrote LORD JIM which should have been three or four books or he should have just used fewer words. Its about the decisions we make and why and what are the consequences. Also the guilt thing and can we repay our dept to the cosmos. I believe in a form of cosmic timing. A mathematically measurable rotation of the spheres and that there is some way of aligning ourselves with it. I don’t go for this personified good/evil. If there is an interventionist God who sits by and allows the atrocities I see everyday (usually in hair salons) then who needs him? I’ll make my own way thanks.

DaveR I heard Dennis Hopper say that he thought he was the best actor in the world, the studio’s Golden Haired Boy. Then a he saw James Dean. I’ve gotta say that saw De Nero when I was a bout 18 and water has tasted different ever since. When I went to the States in ’80 I had a question; “Does American Art imitate life or visa versa?” I came back to Australia a month later none the wiser. As a visitor I could see no delineation. I know that if I’d stayed longer that the novelty would have worn off and I’d get a look at life there but I also would have been subsumed by it and would have lost any identity I may have had. I had a kind of ‘re-visit’ a couple of years ago when I met a couple of Georgian belles at Uni. I couldn’t decide which one to fall in love with so I lost my heart to both. It had a lot to do with myth, offcourse but your culture has a way of doing that. If you look in the icebox of a Mongolian nomad on the Steppes of Asia, you’ll find a bottle of Coke.

Now that the day is officially here, I want to wish everyone here a very happy and rewarding Thanksgiving!

Among the things I am most thankful for is this forum, with all its ups and downs, the hard times and the pleasant ones, and the true friendships that I have developed here.

I have spent several hours reviewing the first posts I contributed here, back in early 1998, while Peggy was recuperating from her surgery. Those days were very good for both of us and it was the kindness and genuine concern expressed by so many of you (some who no longer post here included -- but many who are still around) that helped me find the strength that is embodied here. There's always been a search for truth and understanding, as well as genuine concern for fellow posters here.

Special thanks to Kate, Tom, Carol, Pat, Terry, Hadi, Chris, Kitty, Jeff, Silvia, Sharon, Frank, Kereyra, Lennie, Annie, Patricia, Richard, Geoff, Bob F and Denis for hanging around all these years. And if Sandy, Colleen, James, Theresa, Josie, Phoenix, Lars, Colette, Dolores, Beth, Kim, Barry, Rod, mb, Cara, Rani, and anybody else I'm leaving out whose times here have overlapped with mine, happens to read here today and will accept the invitation to come on back and join in, I'd be very happy to hear from you again, too.

Also some special words to Cathy, Brad and Dick for joining in lately to make the past few weeks for me some really meaningful times.

Thanks mostly to Peggy, who found the way here to start with and whose friendship and love is the greatest gift of my life.

A very special day to you all!

Peggy the moment when Bill Murry says "There are no payoffs." was a very defining moment for me. How fitting it should be Bill who was the catalyst. The first movie i saw on my return from the States was the DEER HUNTER. I have seen it almost thirty times.Brad.

Dave- I know what i want to be. Have done since I saw that movie. Just can't get there. It's one thing I have never given up on.

Potty train the Gators. I personally haveen't masterd it yet. Not like i have spelling.Loved the Floridian thing.

How about this. You have the elections in reverse. Have the primaries last. You'd have to change the name. You elect the party based on their policies. Then when the party is elected they elect the Pres. That way there is not so much power chaneled through one person and the election is based on policy not personality. What have you got to lose except outragous waste, and months of Hollywood Populist Pap? Brad.

Good morning, afternoon and evening. Maugham, sea themes, the tropics (for me anyway), sadness and a new struggler. This is quite a town square we have here.

Peggy wolfs? Are you kidding? Awesome! The trouble with gators is that because of the small brain it’s very difficult to discern any expression. The fact that their faces are solid bone doesn’t help either. A place called Dream World has Tigers. I still like the Gators. I actually tried to potty train because when I checked into hotel rooms with them I had to leave em in the tubs and could only let them into the bathroom one at a time (for space & exercise) but the carpet in the room proper was always at risk from accidents.

Being reptiles they didn’t really need exercise but at night when ever they moved in the tubs it woke me up so eventually I would just run a power lead to the car and leave em out their. Not ideal, security wise but it suited them and me just fine. I’ve never had kids but I think I know what most of you have been through, except for the passing a watermelon bit. D2 I don’t think you won any female friends with the account of the apparent ease of the birth process.

I love the names of the places in Holland. No comedy writer could think that stuff up.

Lennie it seems to me that anyone called Lennie should never be sad. It goes against the natural order of things. Listen to what Peggy says. I echo the stuff about asking for help if this continues. I don’t know you from Adam, well I do, he’s a big guy who whistles when he coughs and can’t roll his tongue, not Evan if he uses his fingers, but I think I know what you’re talking about.

When we talk about perception/reality are we saying that the perception actually alters the reality or just our perception and/or response. My feeling is that the reality still goes on regardless. Ya see I have accepted that trees still fall in the forest wether we hear or not. I remember those old Kung Fu shows with Qui Chang Cain being placed in a hot box thing and coming out after two or three days (episode where longer in the seventies) feeling just fine. Cool and relaxed. Offcourse whenever reality infringed on his perception he had the Kung Fu to beat that nasty reality up with. Don’t know where I’m goin’ with this but I feel that I only truly feel reality when I’m in pain. The happiness thing is just an absence of pain and not a step further. That step would be euphoria or something. I hope that this is not the way of things but I’ve been looking for so long.

I know I’ll read that back and hope someone else wrote it.

DaveR and everyone really. I also love the sea and it’s themes. I love the R.L. Stevenson stories about the pacific. In THE EBB TIDE there is a character that I see as me or at least pretty close. I haven’t read OF HUMAN BONDAGE unless that’s the one about the guy with the clubfoot or is that MOON ON A SIXPENCE. I love Maugham and I really want to read PARIDISE POSTPONED which I think is one of his. KATE I haven’t read the great shame but one of Thomas Keneally’s more famous books here is THE FATAL SHORE. It could actually be the same book with a state’s name. It might not even be one of his. I have to tell you that we have a phenomenon here called the CULTURAL CRINGE. Basically it’s a form of sycophantism that says that anything (art wise) Australian is inferior. That’s very simplistic but you get the gist. When it comes to art, writing, film etc I am the worse offender. It’s not as simple as that. I think we have a more romanticised view of European & American art because of the distance etc. You also have it, as witnessed in Al Pacino’s LOOKING FOR RICHARD. BUT and I mean BUT, Americans have the most amazing skill of appropriating culture. By the end of that film it felt that Shakespeare had written RICHARD THE THIRD for a New York accent and that Pacino was a natural for the part. And it was difficult to remember the English versions I had seen.

I read TRINITY a number of years ago and it reaffirmed my views on Northern Ireland and all ‘so-called’ religious conflict. The first woman to emigrate from Ireland to the U.S. was Marie Connors. My mother happens to be Marie Connors. Freaky, huh? One day someone will tell me what namaste means.

Lennie, the idea of cooking for thirty-eight people just boggles my mind! I'm the I'll-bring-dessert kind of participant. And even that will come from Luby's.

Strange, the people who have eaten my cooking always suggest that I bring pickles. Know what I mean? Guess no one wants my chad casserole.

Sorry to know that you are feeling down. Sometimes it can't be helped so don't be too hard on yourself those times that you can't keep your chin up. Exercise helps but it's not a cure. If your sleep patterns or eating habits change or if this lasts longer than a couple of weeks, you might want to check with your physician. Keep in touch!

I have both versions of The Razor's Edge on tape. But I've never read the book and should. One of Deepak's favorites is Of Human Bondage. Have you read that?

Another thing that we have in common is our experience with wildlife education. I was a wolf docent at a local wildlife park. I have a passion for those particular critters. Now the wildlife park has become a zoo, both literally and figuratively. Although it is only blocks away, I haven't been there in months. My wolves are gone and will probably be replaced eventually with hybrids. (sound: snarling and gnashing of teeth)

Welcome to the baby woman!!!

Congratulations, Dad!

Take good care of her!

Peace, light and merriment...

Dave it is Central European Time Zone and it is six hours ahead of EST. Although you would never know it these last two days.

Young Tara Christine arrived feet first (once more dear friends into the 'breach') yesterday. Monday was a day where the doctor tried to turn her into the correct position. She apparently did not like that...

Today the only problem is a bit of grogginess and a decided lack of sleep.

Thanks to all for your kind words and thoughts. Here is my note to friends and associates from late yesterday evening, it was yesterday wasn't it ???

We received a wonderful pre-Thanksgiving gift today (for my European associates, it is big holiday this week in the USA when presidential vote counting stops and Americans stuff themselves with food). 12 days ahead of schedule at 2:15 am on this 21st day of November, Dorret reached out and grabbed me with her left arm (as if in a nightmare) and said, "Oooh, my water just broke". To which I, in my calm, cool, collected and completely asleep manner replied, "are you sure ?".

Her reply was both obvious and unprintable.

Dorret's sister Henriette was on call for Chris care duty, so at 2:30 am (ouch), the wake-up call went out to their household. Since today is also Henriette's birthday, when husband Hans groggily answered the phone, he was given warm and enthusiastic congratulations on his wife's birthday.

His reply was also obvious and unprintable.

Nine hours later at 11:13 am in Het Spitaal Ziekenhuis (Hospital) in Zutphen, Tara Christine tumbled feet first (literally) out of the womb. A healthy and robust 3610 grams (seven metric pound and almost eight english ones), the pushing phase of the delivery lasted all of 150 seconds as first her feet were plainly in view followed by the back and finally the largest part, the head, came flying out. It happened so quickly that the gynocologist who was working on another floor made it just in time for the final push on Dorret's stomache that popped the head out. (I asked for an instant replay camera, but no one had one, it was that fast.)

At first it looked like Mum and baby were to spend the evening as special guests of the hospital, however, after further review of the referee's call, we were all set free with a clean bill of health and arrived here tired and excited at about 6:00 pm. Our wonderful family arrived about an hour later to help Tara, Mum Dad and Chris adjust to the commotion of this new arrival. There is definitely something very special about this date because Han's sister also gave birth today six hours later (and two weeks late) and in the same hospital.

As for Tara, she is already irritated with shutterbug Dad and his #@#& flash bulbs. I swear I heard her say Daaaaaadddddd already once today.

The Visiting Nurse/caretaker was here today (our system provides 60 hours so we have help in the home for eight days) and she is very sweet. This is a young lady who knew what she wanted to do for a living at age five when she saw the helper for her brother. It is nice to see dedication.

Stateside families and extended families are thrilled. Time to sleep.

I have read some of your books and i think they are very inspiring. if you have a newsletter can you please subscribe me to it. thanks for your time.

and Tom!! :)

Warm is a realitive term. :-) But I wear shorts and a sweatshirt most of the winter. Long pants are for work and at night.

HAHA!! Bob!

Tom G - I didn't know you were in Yuma. We were thinking about firing up the RV in January and coming down your way. Is it warm there in January?

Namaste'

85 year old drivers? 25MPH Speeds? An influx of Canadians? Sounds like Yuma in the winter. :-) Funny thing is, I've never understood why I see so many Georgia and Florida license plates here this time of year.

Carol - I just got a great E Mail from a friend in West Palm Beach. The jist went along the lines that you Floridians are going to continue to hold the rest of the nation hostage, via the election results, until we agree to take our parents back home. Another condition was that we stop Canadians from coming down as well.

Apparently, you are tired of 85 year old drivers, 25 mile an hour speed limits, blue plate specials, being forced to look at grandkid pictures and a whole row in the grocery devoted to Depends.

Funny stuff - at least some take this with a sense of humor!!

Namaste'

Congratulations extended to Denis, Dorret, and Chris. How terrific for all of you. What a wonderful pre-Christmas gift this year ... :-)

What a great holiday gift! She wouldn't have fit in that stocking anyway. :-)

congrats to Denis & Dorret and a big hug for Chris.
Welcome, little Tara, to the Human Race!! :)

Echoing congrats on the new arrival! Great news!

For those who may not have heard - Denis, Dorret and Christopher Rumi were blessed with a new addition to their family 12 days ahead of schedule. Tara Christine Groot Wassink was born yesterday morning at a healthy and robust 8 pounds.

A Big Congratulations Denis and Dorret

Namaste'

Great post, Floridian Voters! How many ballots got subjected to a little origami and sailed out the windows there?

MCVPBCBF

Plaintiffs,

vs.

SECRETARY KATHERINE HARRIS, THERESA LAPORE, JUDGE TERRY LEWIS, JUDGE STEPHEN A. RAPP, CARL HIAASEN, LILLY PULITZER, BUTTERFLIES, SUNSHINE, THE NATION OF CHAD, THE INVENTOR OF "HELVETICA CONDENSED" TYPEFACE AND PRESTON STURGES

Defendants.

COMPLAINT

We, the members of the newly formed citizens’ group The Most Confused Voters of Palm Beach County By Far, or MCVPBCBF (pronounced MCVPBCBF), allege that the Palm Beach ballot (reproduced below) contains language and design so confusing, misleading and otherwise baffling as to cause us to vote in error in the following ways, thereby rendering us disenfranchised:

1. Voters in our organization thought "Dick Cheney" was a directive rather than a name.

2. Some voters could discern no party affiliations for the candidates, as they were taught in speed-reading class to ignore all parenthetical statements.

3. The name "Winona LaDuke" on the ballot confused many voters, who believed that punching that hole would cast a vote for David Duke, since it is widely known that he uses the stage name "LaDuke" in his cabaret act.

4. Elderly voters in particular were confused by the presence of both the Socialist Party and the Socialist Workers Party, and were unable to recall which stands for worker control of all industry through the democratic organization of the workplace and for the social ownership of the means of production and distribution, and which stands for workers collectively seizing control of society’s wealth and democratically planning its production and distribution according to human needs instead of profit.

5. Poll workers reported that voters, after seeing the name "Ezola," declared, "No flesh-eating, tax-and-spend virus is going to get my vote, by jingo."

6. Upon seeing that The Workers World Party candidates were famous porn stars Monica Moorehead and Gloria La Riva, many voters concluded that the whole ballot was obviously a joke.

7. Voters were confused that the Constitution Party ticket contained no ridiculous names whatsoever.

8. Upon seeing the candidates for the two major parties, many voters concluded that the whole ballot was obviously a joke.

Another book for you, Brad, if you like histories is The Great Shame by Thomas Keneally that recounts a lot about the early settlers in Australia.

Brad, I'll say it again: your posts are a bright spot in my day! Thanks for sharing all those personal details. I find we have a lot more in common than just a fascination with writing and Nature.

I, too, started off wanting to be an actor. My teenage idol was James Dean, who had already died before I even knew who he was. I saw "Rebel Without A Cause" when I was just starting high school (9th grade where I went) and everything about that movie spoke straight to me. I read every article and magazine I could find about his life, interests, career, and influence, from that time on. I still have maybe two dozen books about him that I bought after I was an "adult."

I studied Drama and Art during my first pass at college, with a smattering of math and science and philosophy and psych/sociology to boot. The school I attended wasn't big on performance, mostly just had to read old plays and study theory. So it was after I dropped out in my junior year that I really got any acting experience in community theater. I went back to school after a three year layoff, during which time I had some radio announcing experience, and tried to change to Physics and Math, but the time off, plus having a family underway, kept me from recovering the academic standards I needed to get back in good graces there. I did more community theater, and more radio work before deciding that acting was just not my forte. So I got into computers instead and had been doing that until I got downsized out of a 20-year job just recently. The ample amount of free time helps to explain the volume of my posting here over the past month or so.

Peg will fill you in on the coincidences your story has with hers, and I don't want to reveal stuff she will discuss with you.

It does sound as if the "Six Degrees of Separation" thing might easily work with us, though! With your US travels, I'd be willing to bet you know somebody who knows somebody, etc., who knows everybody at this forum! It would be hard to validate, given the way the posts work here, but I still would bet on it.

As for getting that right career early on in one's life, I'm in my late 50's with a year and a few weeks to go before hitting the big 6-0, and I still don't know what I want to be "when I grow up!" For me, it's been a "go with the flow" approach all along. I'm one of those types Bob mentioned who "let things happen" I guess.

I'm curious about some of your other interests outside career, if you care to share such things. My main ones in recent times (they always seem to cycle back around after long periods of dormancy) are haiku, chess, jazz, guitar, drums, astronomy (nothing near as serious as Chris!), macrame', hiking, movies, "pop science and math" and "good fiction."

Speaking of "good fiction" have you ever read Leon Uris's TRINITY? The fact that the Australian population of ex-Europeans includes a lot of the displaced Irish, most of whom I thought had come to the USA before reading that book, might be a fun thing to investigate. I just learned recently that my family has a fair number of Irish ancestors, not that that is all that significant: there are many other nationalities involved, too, as I suspect is true of most USA types.

Your mention of the Aborigines, and Carol's comments about the parallels with the "Native Americans" is oh so true wherever the "Old World" conquerors went, isn't it? North America, South America, Africa, Asia, and Australia all have their stories of subjugation of native populations. Not too long ago there was a terrific NOVA program on the Vikings and how widespread their conquering was. I knew they had been to the "New World" before Columbus, but was unaware of how much their influence was felt in Russia, the Balkans, and other places in southeastern Asia. Those guys got around!

Long post as usual, but just wanting you to know, Brad, how great it is to have your contributions here! Since I just got up for the day (it's 8:30 AM CST Wednesday) I guess it's close to your sleep time. So, I guess we'll just have to have these opposite ends of the day to exchange ideas.

Thanks for the data on the Australian time zone situation. Sounds as cobbled up as the USA!

dear Lennie, it is hard to see the bliss bunny, sometimes, but it IS always there. i hope you enjoy your family and the meal you will work so hard for (my daughter-in-law just passed thru and said this dinner was giving her a migraine cuz she wants it to be right!) so maybe, after the dinner things will look brighter for you and her.

my landscaping son has moved to Massachusetts and my yard looks like it. he and his oldest son used to come and rake the leaves. but this year, without that activity, i am finding it very difficult to keep the leaves out of my unscreened pool. so, it has really brought to my attention how much of a help he was.

as i write these words, i see that i sure don't have a lot to complain about and it reminds me of how really lucky we are in this country.

Lennie, I sincerely hope your 38 guests help to cheer you up! So sorry to hear things aren't all that bright for you. Feel free to share those things with us, if it's comfortable to.

The picture you paint of your room sounds exquisite! The nautical theme is one I always like to see. We have a bookshelf in the living room dedicated to ships and sailing, with a few knickknacks like a miniature ship, a boatswain's whistle, some knots books, and some books on sailing and New England ships. Nowhere near as much a theme as you room, though.

My oldest son is also into landscaping and is even going to reseed our front yard so there'll be some grass there! That will mean more mowing, of course, but the strange vegetation that grows there now is almost all not-grass. I think that comes from never raking leaves!

Happy Thanksgiving! Cathy what part of Georgia are you in? Hello everyone have been real busy with family and work lately but usually try to catch up at really odd times on the forum. My bliss bunny seems to have taken a vacation but i am working on that. My computer room as some of you know is my tv room. It is a octogan shaped room with windows on all three sides and all the decor is nautical inside looking out to the side window there is small water fall looking out to the left there is a 20 by 60 foot water fall with a 5 foot water fall my son built it for me this summer he is in landscaping he is a sweet child. He he this child is 27 years old I suppose we or rather I still see them as my children even though they are adults!any way my computer is a tv.Peggy I hope your sister and you have a lovely visit. I am preparing dinner tommorow for 38 people.But i am used to that we have a very large family. I know this is really going to sound strange after my last post of having such a good time in life.but I am real sad these last few weeks maybe it is all chemical but I am having a real hard time keeping my chin up.so any way I would like to say I am thankful for all you guys at the forum you all dont know how important you are to me ,,,well any way you are. Kitty I need a snow picture please.

yup, Brad, i'm in Florida and we got gators, heh! i took an airboat ride out to see them last summer and i was wowsers! at how many were out there. and of course we got the gators football team which incidentally, lost their last game.

Kate, i see you down there and no i didn't know. thanks to you and Dave for your posts!

tomorrow is T-Day and i am very Thankful for much. but not for how we treated the Native Americans and the animals of this country, as Brad, points out the Aussie parallels in his post. too bad, we lost so much, here. no going back, tho.....

I meant SOON, ok son?

Australia is surrounded by that dihydrogen monoxide stuff. And it keeps falling here day and night. I love it. Snowing in Buffalo I see. Hey BobF, did you say 5 degrees? Thats 5 degrees 'F' right. That's cold. We should be getting the annual disaster reports about the blizards and stuff son. I'll keep a look out for ya'll. Stay warm.

Do you think the bold was too much? I haven't mastered that stuff yet.Annie nice to hear. I'm loving connecting directly with indeviduals and the group at the same time. Forgot about Thanks Giving. We don't have it here. See we're not very gratefull at all to the Aboriginies for letting us take their land, desimate their culture and blaming them for their own missfortune. We are actually fairly ungratefull types. There's an OUCH for ya.

Thanks Cathy. I do want to make people laugh but essentially, once I've posted the words belong to whoever reads them. But I'm glad you like 'em. I'm a little more concerned with my individual conciousness at this stage. I gotta get some sleep.

Nice things you said folks. That’s what gets em back. Well me anyway. Last night’s sky was an epileptics nightmare. I thought I was in a disco with so much lightning everywhere and, at about 1am the wind started, the temp dropped and light got closer and louder. Fun during the day but I’ve got to get some sleep.

Did you here about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac?

He lay awake all night, wondering if there really is a dog.

Ah, it’s an oldie but a goody. While I think of it – time zones. Australia, East to West, covers about three time zones except in summer. Hold tight folks. Perth, Western Aust. is about three or four hours behind us, Adelaide is somewhere in between and here it get tricky with Daylight Saving. The Eastern Seaboard, including Me and Geoff (?) in Melbourne, is all on the same Zone. In Summer (now) NSW and Victoria (Melb) go an hour ahead. Qld is not the most politically progressive state in the country and we’re too stubborn to go to DLS time. Besides it’s so dam hot up here the days are long enough thanks. Then you have Tasmania and the Northern Territory. Forget about it.

Carol you are in Florida, right? You know, for a time here, I worked with Alligators. I love em I really do. I worked for a Reptile Park securing bookings for their Mobile Education Dept. Mobile reptile shows at schools. My job was to visit schools all over Australia. I’d walk into the reception area with one of my Gators (Lumpy and Bumpy) on my arm and say something like, “We got a call that you had some naughty kids here.” That was fun. The kids loved em. They got to touch them and look at them. It was a treat for them and me. I saw most of the country and learned a lot about Gators and people. We used Gators, even though they not native here, because the defence mechanism in Crocodiles is so hard wired that even when small they’re just to feisty and dangerous.

DaveR the journalism thing. If you could see this stuff before the spell check, you would see I’m no pro. Time to fess up. I left school in ’80 to study acting. Soon I had my own TV show. Kids again. Pretty soon I had one of them thar’ career things. Pretty soon producers, from all over the country, wanted to see my work. Next thing ya know I’m gettin’ cocky. I had some really big problems at that time and I decided to hit the big smoke of Sydney. Guess what. Those producers I mentioned couldn’t seem to remember me, or didn’t have any work or whatever.

I did some theatre in Newcastle but essentially I was out of work for about three and a half years. Then drove cabs for about the same time. In about here I was diagnosed as ‘…not all there.’ Hence the interest in brain chemicals. Then went back to Uni to make my way back to where I thought I wanted to go. The major I wanted was out because my part-time job clashed so I took Journalism. About a 25minutes into the first lecture I knew I would never be a journalist. Not that I can’t write but I can’t see myself at the victims home asking the relatives “HOW DO YOU FEEL?”

The reason I haven’t told you anything about my place is because at 38 I find myself unemployed again and living with my folks. I guess I’m what Aussies call a “No hoper.” I had a job for about ten months this year. That’s the longest in my life so far. And eight weeks after I bought a computer and a car I lost my job. Things look bleak now but over the term of my adult life, things are actually getting better. I am one person who can say that a million dollars would definitely make me happy. I don’t need a million. Just a chance to make a living off my talents. I do write. I’m writing a couple of screenplays and have a couple of short stories. This is great exercise.

You all write really well. With your own styles. Some of those descriptions of your computer rooms are very nice and create great pictures.

I hope these posts aren’t too long but while I’m on it. One of my all time fave books is THE RAZORS EDGE by W. Somerset Maugham. That book and the too movies about it have helped me shape a lot of my philosophy. This is too long. I’m glad some of you like my posts. I hope they’re not too self-indulgent. See ya’ll.

Wonder if dihydrogen monoxide might be used to cure deserts. Everything has at least one good benefit, I imagine. I have used it (on rare occasions) to remove bird droppings from the windshield.

Bob, I think you have hit upon an important solution for a problem that the USA is having right now. Florida is almost surrounded by dihydrogen monoxide. Move it inland!

Happy Wednesday afternoon, Brad!

My sister sleeps under my roof tonight for the first time in years. What a joy! She even ate my stew! (I was the one who threw up...)

What's for breakfast?

Hi all

Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it :-)

Brad, your post made me smile again--the part about if that's enlightenment then it's not what I'm after and the image of being dragged by the ear to make up--it's your delivery that's humorous (or as I read it anyway with my image of you in mind :-))As Carol pointed out, I think "good" ideas do come out here quite often...but that would depend on one's viewpoint, I guess :-) If you have specific questions about Deepak's work, since you mentioned that's one thing you're looking for here--please feel free to ask! I've read a lot of his stuff--and always enjoy it though it does sorta repeat much of the same stuff...I like him, enjoy his writing style and what he says.

Bob, glad to be heard :-) Actually itwas good for me to examine my reaction too...I tend to want to have everyone on equal ground---and while we are all on equal ground regarding inherent worth (as I see it) and our paths are equally worthy, there are degrees and variations of knowledge/experience in all aspects of Life--including the spiritual path. An aside--along this different path idea--I'm thinking of the stories of very simple people, who never read any Deepak books ;-), may not even read, who exemplify pure love. So while they might not be able to talk about "spiritual ideas" per se--they embody the end goal. That's how I am, you see....;-)Guess that doesn't really apply to any of us here, though, eh? As we all read and do not exemplify pure love (though maybe some come close?) The point being again, what Kate said--that we should probably avoid addressing people's "levels" because there is no one set scale that applies to all, and because we don't really know---though I certainly understand your intent to help those you can and to learn from those who "know" more than you (I was gonna say learn from those who can teach you--but we all do that for each other :-))

Gobble, gobble!

Cathy

Good evening on Tuesday for most. I think. Gotta read em first. I'll be back. Trouble with a broken under-sea comm able near Indo or Philipines. Just saw THE CELL. What a trip. And topical to what we've been talking about. I think. Brad.

and the count goes on.........

"If you believe in the "Big Bang Theory", then we are just shrapnel"

That's Great.

Peggy - I agree, that Dihydrogen Monoxide is even more nasty than you enumerated. It dries out people's skin, it is the main cause of drowning, it is the main cause of erosion, in the winter it causes many car wrecks and on and on. We should unite to do away with it!!!!!

Namaste'

This post is not directed at anyone in particular. I just found it interesting:

From a news article about a publication entitled Physics & Society, which is a publication of the American Physical Society. The heading is "Eliminate Dihydrogen Monoxide!" and it goes on to state the following:

"A freshman at Eagle Rock Junior High won first prize at the Greater Idaho Falls Science Fair, April 26. He was attempting to show how conditioned we have become to the alarmists practicing junk science and spreading fear of everything in our environment. In his project he urged people to sign a petition demanding strict control or total elimination of the chemical 'dihydrogen monoxide'. And for plenty of good reasons, since it 1) can cause excessive sweating and vomiting, 2) is a major component of acid rain, 3) can cause severe burns in its gaseous state, 4) can be lethal if accidentally inhaled, 5) contributes to erosion, 6) decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes, 7) has been found in tumors of terminal cancer patients. He asked 50 people if they supported the ban of the chemical, which is water. The title of his prize winning project was, 'How Gullible Are We?' He feels that the conclusion is obvious."

Thanks a bunch, Annie! Maybe the "good intentions" will bring a few more voices to the forum?

Good morning Dave. To set the record straight, I am in Pacific time - Southern California. I also find it very interesting how we are spread out all over the globe. Would be nice if others, from other countries, joined in the discussions also. Do you think mass consciousness would help manifest this? :)

Brad, I also have been enjoying your recent post. Would love to hear more.

Have fun everyone!

As I was tending to the chores and errands I mentioned, I got to thinking about all the "regulars" I had omitted from the time zone thing. Kereyra is in Mexico, and that's most likely either Mountain or Pacific Time. Which one, Kereyra?

Pat is in Eastern Time. Kitty is Mountain Time. Frank (where are you, amigo?) is probably in Mountain Time in Canada. Sharon is Pacific, and so is Silvia (again Canada). Patricia, I know you're in Canada, and I think Central Time, but I'm not sure. Is it Eastern? Lennie is in Eastern. Jeff is in Mountain. Annie, if you've said your time zone -- or city -- I can't recall. Phoenix is Eastern. Lars is in Sweden, and that's still further east than Holland, so I can't name the zone there. In fact I'm not sure if the time zones have universal names, although I have seen US maps of the globe with all the zones named. I'm working mostly from memory here.

Whom have I left out this time? I know there are others, but some haven't posted in a while. I am really sorry if I left anyone out; it's the risk one takes when one tries to think of everybody who posts here with any regularity.

Anyway, Brad and others, even though it might feel as if there's a large number of us whose names keep popping up, it's really a smallish number after all.

Synchro, just to play devil's advocate to what you say, how do you differentiate those natural responses from snakes and chickens when they feel hostile intentions, to what some humans feel when they think they're being preached to? Some of us have learned the hard way -- much like your harmed animals have -- that not everybody with a message is coming from a "good place" and meaning no harm. Your message sounds hopeful, and would probably work just fine if there were no harmful intentions about. But I think the cosmos is not entirely benevolent to our species, and many of our species are not benevolent as well.

How do you square these things?

Dear Namaste Friend,

In our previous SynchroDestiny chapter, we explored the role of intent. In today's SynchroDestiny passage, we learn that we must first experience a sense of gratitude before we create an intention.

With the holidays upon us, The Chopra Center for Well Being staff would like to thank you, our 'ambassadors of higher states of consciousness', for your kind comments, your encouragement regarding the work we are doing and the suggestions you have sent us throughout the year.

We wish everyone an extraordinary holiday season filled with health, happiness and gratitude for all that life holds!

Namaste,

The Chopra Center for Well Being Staff

SynchroDestiny: The Power of Intention - Part 2 We've seen how intention is a powerful force in nature. We've also talked a bit about how we can become separated or alienated from that larger intention as a result of our own ego driven desires and needs. Now let's focus on what you do to realign yourself with the cosmic intent - - what you can do to create harmony between what you intend and what the universe intends for you. Once that harmony is created, once that congruence is brought into being, you'll find that synchronicity becomes a greater presence in your life. And this, of course, is one of the strongest indicators of spiritual transformation.

As a precondition for any intention on your part, I would suggest nurturing a viewpoint of simple gratitude. Just start with a feeling of being grateful - - so even before you have the intent you say: I acknowledge my gratitude. I give thanks for my place in the cosmos and for the opportunity I have to further the destiny we all share.

So the first requirement of positive intent is acknowledging gratitude, and the second thing is to abandon grievance of all kinds. Grievance comes from the ego. There's a beautiful passage in The Course of Miracles, which is a very interesting set of books that you may already be familiar with. The passage says, "Every decision I make is a choice between a grievance and a miracle." Try to remember that. Every decision you make is a choice between a grievance and a miracle. So the first thing is to acknowledge gratitude before you start any intent. And the second thing is to abandon all grievances.

Again, this is an area of concern that's unique to us as human beings. Animals don't have any problems with grudges or grievances. If you hurt an animal it will learn from that experience, and it will avoid you in order to avoid being hurt again in the future. But the animal doesn't really have a grievance inside it. It doesn't say to itself, "This person is violent, so I'm going to get revenge." That really doesn't happen in the natural world. An animal that's been hurt may try to kill you the next time you're around, but this is a survival response in the interest of the whole species.

In India, it's very well known that if you kill a cobra, all the other snakes in the family become very vicious. If you're anywhere in the vicinity of those snakes you have to be very careful, because the survival response of the species is triggered when their number is diminished. But there's no emotional need on the part of the animals to get back at you. They're not plotting it or thinking about it all day. It's a survival thing. Nature's intent is the survival of the species, and the individuals are simply channeling that intention.

You don't have to be a scientist to understand these issues. People who spend time in natural environments are very acutely aware of intention as a factor in behavior. Hunters know this extremely well. A hunter can walk through the forest with a loaded gun, but unless he has the intention of firing the gun there's no evasive response on the part of the animals in the area. But as soon as there's an active intent to hunt and fire the gun, then the animals' behavior changes. They sense the intention, and they understand it.

When I was growing up in India we had a neighbor who had a chicken farm. Every Sunday they would have a barbecue and the neighbor would come out and start looking over the chickens. Maybe he'd think, "Oh, how about that nice plump black one there" - - and as soon as that thought entered his mind the black hen would run. And all the other hens would get out of the way. Even they would know what the intention was. In any case, it's only among human beings that intention is encumbered by all sorts of emotional baggage - - and that's what you want to get rid of in order to create a pure intention. Abandon all emotional baggage, but the most important aspect of this is getting rid of grievances. Getting rid of ego driven static.

Your intention should be in timeless awareness. There should be no ego in the way. Pure intention should be completely natural and effortless. No straining, because if you strain it's not going to happen. In nature there's no strain. It's effortless spontaneity. When the pigeon is flying back to it's loft in England, it isn't saying, "How do I get there? When am I going to get there? What if I don't get there, or what if another pigeon gets there before me?" It just flies. It just goes where it wants to go. There's no strain. It's effortless and spontaneous. It's also a kind of surrender to the larger intention that transcends the individual identity. We have to learn to say, "It's not just happening in here inside me. It's also happening out there in the larger environment which is expressing itself through me." That's an inner attitude of surrender.

Good morning all from the Mountain Time Zone - 5 degrees, very sunny, snow on the mountains but none in the valley and 4 dogs to wash today for Thanksgiving.

I appreciated the recent posts and feedback - it helps me respond appropriately. The lilac field was beautiful Pegs and I hear you loud and clear Cathy.

I in no way intend to come across as condescending and feel I am not conveying what I want properly. If I was, you would understand and be OK with where I am at. Things are going to be crazy here with Thanksgiving coming up and I need to help Sandy get ready. I know what I want to say but need time to compose how to say it properly. I will mentally work on it as I am doing an assembly line on the dogs and everything else and post it after Thanksgiving.

Enough for now - got wood to chop and water to carry. Have a great day everyone!!!

Namaste', Bob

I'll certainly second what Dave said on commenting. I trust you to make the decision on commenting and am open to hear what you have to say. And thanks for your recent boosts to my sanity. You may not be aware you did that, but thought I'd let you know. :-)

One more thing and then I have to take care of some chores and errands. Do y'all remember that thing about digging through the earth and coming out in China? (This would be a USA thing, folks, but the idea applies wherever you are).

Unless you knew the precise angle to dig -- it could not be straight down! -- there's no way a USA person could dig to China!

It would be closer to Australia for North Americans! Actually, for most of us it would be in the Indian Ocean, but what the hey!

Brad, I want you to know that I genuinely look forward to reading your posts. I like your style! At first I wasn't sure of the irony factor, but it's no doubt now! Your perspective is refreshing and interesting, and since you're on opposite (almost) ends of the day/night continuum from me, I really look forward to logging in and seeing your posts. Great to have you among us!

I'll check into "Cold Mountain" next trip to the bookstore. I still have to make it through "The Holographic Universe" which was recommended by several here, before getting into another book. I usually read aloud to Peg so we both "read" a book together. That makes for a bit more of a commitment, since the timing issue is involved. Of course, there are those things she reads to herself that I could care a fig about, and the things I read to myself would gross her out, or bore her to sleep. It is hard to read a chess book aloud to somebody.

Brad, if you care to expand, I'd like to hear more about your journalism thing. Some time back another "regular" named James was also a professional writer and his posts were great fun. I guess we're all "writers" when you get down to it, right? Some are just more "pro" than others, which keeps it spicy.

General question to all: if you were given carte blanche on any subject of your choice, and enough of an advance to keep your necessities under control, and could spend as much on research and travel as you needed to, what one subject would you pick to write a book about?

Okay! I went back over the past 200 posts to see who all I had left out of the time zones thing, and see that I overlooked D2 (also known as Denis) who lives in Holland. I know there are several time zones in Europe and that Holland is east of England, but I can't tell if it's more than one time zone away. D2, can you help?

My bet would be that Queensland is no more than one zone away from Melbourne, is that right, Brad?

I'm almost certain I'm leaving a "regular" or two off this list, but I guess it depends on what "regular" means. Do any of you have a good "standard" in mind for what a forum "regular" would be? I'm really curious about that. It would be a snap to list 50-60 names who have visited here and posted more than a few times, and maybe several hundred who have posted at all. But "regular" -- what's that?

Good morning to USA types, and G'day Brad!

Cathy, Carol and Richard are USA types, Brad. For reference (based on my recollection of how we're scattered here) Cathy and Carol are on Eastern Time and Richard is on Pacific Time. Geoff is a fellow Aussie. TO (I still call him Terry more often than not) is in the Central Zone, Chris (I believe) is in the Mountain Zone between Central and Pacific. Kate is almost due north of Peg and me (Central Time), but I think her time is like Eastern, due to state preferences. Hadi is in England. Dick could be from anywhere, but I assume USA somewhere, based on nothing in particular, just a hunch. Bob is in Mountain Time (again, I think -- never sure of the dividing line between Mountain and Pacific) and Tom is also Mountain (I think). Who am I leaving out among the current "regulars"? My apologies to you, whoever you are. Maybe you can correct my memory on where you're located, too.

As Carol said, and Cathy attested to, it is so much fun having this global community to compare notes on things. It helps the perspective thing a lot, not to be regionalized much further than occupying the Third Rock from the Sun.

good morning......i won't say it to you Brad , i know it isn't morning where you are, so hi! i read Cold Mountain some time ago. it was good reading. Deepak's books are good reading, too, if you are waiting to hear it from someone here. i loved Way of the Wizard and will read it again, sometime. there are other books he has written but Wizard was magical and mystical and it fit right in, for the mood i was in at the time.

as for being enlightened? if you see it as i do, you might realize that we are ALL enlightened. some more than others but who's comparing? not me. one thing, for me, it makes it real easy to love everybody. i can't find a thing wrong with that, can you? most people don't want it easy, tho, and i guess that makes me a little different from some? who knows? anyway, keep reading, there are many bright jewels here. i see them every day.

thanks for sharing your country with us. i love hearing about other parts of the world. i am in Melbourne, Florida. not a very comfortable place to be, right now, what with the eyes of the world on us. What a Mickey Mouse way to run a state, heh? i saw that on the BBC and now i hate to say i must agree. they said country, tho, i'm personalizing it a bit.

well, we are getting ready to observe Thanksgiving Holiday and tho things don't look real bright for me, right now, i am still very thankful for so much. my daughter-in-law is planning to cook a huge meal and doesn't need any help. :) or so she says, heh? so i will just enjoy the meal and get fat! of course, it will be the traditional Turkey, dressing, and cranberry dinner, etc. too bad for the Turkey, ya know?

ok, Brad, i hope you don't get too disappointed with this slightly (?) enlightened group of seekers. we have our ups and downs, for sure, but whos to say it is not the way of things? not me.

When I was a kid, I got into the occasional fight. I could have won more but I don’t have the killer instinct. Sometimes the teacher would catch us and grab us by the ears and make us shake hands and say sorry. More often than not me and the other kid made a genuine effort to forgive each other eventually became friends again.

As adults can we force ourselves to make that effort?

I’m sorry but I haven’t read anything here that in anyway suggests enlightenment. Actually I have but I'm not sayin' who or what. Yes I can see the effort and that I like. I don’t know how an enlightened being behaves but if this is it then I guess enlightenment isn’t what I’m chasing.

I confess I came here because I’m a very careful consumer and before I shell out for one of Deepak’s books I wanted to get an insight into what others had to say about him. I guess none of you are on the marketing team.

Anywho, DaveR and those interested, I’m actually in Australia. North Queensland in fact. It is so green and lush that even on cloudy days the colours are so vivid you need sunnies. We’ve just had some record rainfall. Seem these days everything is a record of some sort. The small town I live in is in the middle of cane fields and pretty much in the middle of a big valley. It’s a little like the mid-west except tropical and we spell corn C-A-N-E. The Great Barrier Reef guards most of the Queensland coast. Sometimes, while on the water, a tourist will see a brown scum like substance covering kilometres of sea. “Pollution.” They will say and a local will tell them that it’s actually coral spawn. The coral is releasing its next generation to the currents. I too have said this on many occasions. Offcourse I have learned since that the coral spawns only once a year. I have seen the brown scum more often than that. What they’re seeing is most likely an algal bloom of some sort. Inside the reef is a finite environment in global terms. When the recent rains came they washed topsoil into the rivers and into the sea, as well as sewage etc. On the topsoil is a lot of fertilizer. The theory is that this fertilizer, along with all the topsoil and stuff creates a nutrient imbalance. Usually too many nutrients which offcourse causes the algae to bloom beyond the levels that the natural predators of algae can eat. So, it would seem, the tourist was right after all.

It’s still very, very beautiful and well worth the visit. Be assured that visiting the reef need not damage it. We take a great deal of care to minimize visitor damage. In fact I heard today that Able Point Marina (Airlie Beach) is the busiest in the world. Isn’t funny how everything is the somethingest in the world? Offcourse, when it comes to super tankers flying around razor sharp and pristine coral ready to shed their toxic loads we tend not to mind so much.

Reading your posts, not really knowing any history is really interesting. I believe context sometimes plays too great a role in our perceptions of the world and others. I doubt I will have the same responses down the track.

DaveR – I just read a book called Cold Mountainby Charles Frazier. I’m pretty sure it’s set in your neck of the woods. You describe it better than he does though. I want so much to revisit the U.S. and the rest of the world but that aint gonna happen anytime soon. I find I have too much to say and not enough time or space. Bit like a journalist.

Snorts! Richard, when I first read your post, I thought you were saying that you would be sitting down to a twelve course meal! Shows you where my mind is. (Bring on the carrot cake!)

My son-in-law is preparing a Thanksgiving meal just for the "adults" this time. (The quotation marks are used because it is hard to find just the right category for Dave.) Finally, someone else in our family is big on tradition! Maybe afterwards when can find a good football game to scream about.

Happy Thanksgiving...

Richard--I agree with you that Life/Nature will recover and are not at risk--but, being a biped, and having biped offspring, I'm hoping for a bright future for them :-) I'm with you on picking up trash when we see it etc...just do it!

Last one I promise--for tonight, at least :-)

Cathy

I'm back. The supply ship was late with Internet top up card and it took me ages to get that dumb shark out of the lagoon again.

Too many posts on a Monday. I'm guessing you guys are at work.

DaveR I havn't read all the posts yet but I saw the bit about you over simplifying the HTML stuff. I said I did some at Uni. That didn't mean a PHD. Just enough to know what you were talking about. You at least picked it up, I had to study it. I don't have much truck with that "You must be smarter 'cause you went to college."crap. I know you didn't mean that but some do.

I'm aff to read the posts.See ya'll.

Hi Gang!,

You have all been very busy!!

My observations/comments are. Be nice, the Great out there/world is tough enough. Any way--

Bob, "everything is as it should be"...words to that effect baffled/angered co-worker; Mental Health Professionals.

Dave, My T-Day plans is a huge potluck 12-stepper affair, followed by a meeting and sharing.

Cathy and others, I don't believe that Nature/Life/The Environment are at risk. Just this humongous group of large bipeds. They may have a short run, do to nest fouling and overpopulation. Life and nature will recover-go on. What I do when feeling powerless about things, is to do things. Pick up trash when on trails and rivers (nails and tire hazard stuff in town). I donate to organizations; Disabled American Veterans, Predator Defense Institute, local homeless mission, local food bank, M.H. Self-Help dropin center, native plant society, the green party, and nra (that should bring unity amongst my liberal friends)...I think people make a difference when they empower themselves to, whether it politics, the environment, or people.

Namate', love and light to you all

Okay, hubby is working and the kids are not fighting and I've been pondering this thing about proclaiming what we know etc...it occurred to me that perhaps another reason why I have found it annoying when someone talks about how they're in some elite group of spiritual knowledge is that it seems to imply something about my worth, as I see it, because to me, the most valuable thing in Life is our spirit. I don't care if someone tells me that they're in the top 1% intellectually, for example--though I might think them a bit of a show off. And maybe, I have thought it showing off, to hear it said that there is this spiritual group of which I'm not a part? I'm thinking out loud, as it were, stream of consciousness kinda thing ;-)But when I read about Jesus saying the same thing (though I implied earlier that he said it a little differently?), I don't feel that way...I wonder at his assurance--though, I suppose that in addition to those that thought him dangerous, there were many who thought him arrogant. Now, I have my own perceptions of those here who have claimed to have access to some higher knowledge--and, while not doubting that they've had glimpses, I wasn't struck by their presence as I guess I have assumed I would be when dealing with a "master"--and so maybe that was what bothered me. And I think I have this thing about elitism in general--social, intellectual, whatever. As Dave says we're all human beings, and for me, we're all of equal "value" in God's eyes...but, while we all have equal value, we are not all the same, and some of us know more than others in a wide variety of things--spiritual things are no different. So I have come to be more humble and less concerned with where I am on my journey, and hopefully this outlook will persist. Polly Berends (are you sick of hearing her name yet? :-) I really like her, obviously) talks about the illusion of growing up and trying to be "self-sufficient" which sort of puts us in a competition of sorts with other separate-minds-in bodies--so when one excels it casts a shadow over our own doings. But when we see the connectedness, we can appreciate beauty, wisdom, grace or whatever, wherever we see it, for it is all simply an expression of Fundamental love-intelligence of which we are part--it doesn't "belong" to any "one"...an interesting area for me...

Bye again...Cathy

Hadi-I am staying out of the rest of the fray, but I would like to offer my support to you for being ridiculed by Dick--I think the majority of his posts are about making fun of many of us here and he seems to have a particular dislike for you. For what it's worth, I do not take anything he says about you seriously because he says it all with obvious contempt--and I'm not being closed-minded, Dick--I read what you say and consider it--but the tone is too mean-spirited, for it to have any merit for me...

Have a good evening everyone!

Cathy

Man--I leave the computer unattended for a few hours and all heaven breaks loose! ;-)

I have a few comments that may be untimely when one reads this as an ongoing discussion, but oh well :-)

Regarding Geoff's comment about the forum being in a shambles--I assumed he was being funny, as he almost always is--I've yet to see him say anything directly negative, even with provocation...I'm sure he was glad to see Hadi back, but he seemed to enjoy the forum in the interim. Along those lines--I personally don't have a preference as to how it's going--I figure however it's going is however it needs to be going to show us individually whatever we need to be shown. :-) A lot of bickering (when I'm not involved ;-)) shows me how unnecessary it seems to be--while it may give those involved opportunities to practice patience or practice better communication, clarify ideas or whatever...it doesn't matter to me if someone else thinks our discussion is "lousy"--

Bob--I liked your comment about the sulphur and the lillies--very true as I see it :-) I also agree that comments naming a particular few that "know", who are among only 1% of people who "know" are inherently off-putting, as Kate so gently put it. :-) I don't doubt that enlightened people are the vast minority---but I think Carol's presentation of being nothing "special" is a better way to go. I'm thinking of Jesus--and while he did say similar stuff about knowing ("I am the way, the truth, and the light" sounds like someone proclaiming they know ;-)) he didn't say and by the way, my knowing this puts me in a very elite 1% of humanity. ;-) I don't know, it's a bit complicated. I guess for me there may be an element of envy--though not malicious :-) I'd love to "know" am striving to "know", would love for the whole world to "know" :-) I think it is inherent when in the minority (especially in something so personal as level of consciousness which seems to carry with it good/bad scores, tho it really doesn't), that shouting the message isn't always received well by the majority. That should really come as no surprise. It's like anything else--you have to be ripe for the message--otherwise, it's annoying ;-)

Not to mention, that, as Kate said, don't assume to know the internal workings of others--maybe I am enlightened and just act like I'm not to instruct others ;-) ha! Not! Or maybe there are differnt paths that don't follow the meditation/exploration route that are equally valid in getting to God. Naming a specific few as in a different category than the rest of us denies this possibility.

Anyway, Bob, I've gotten over my initial irritation that I felt when I first came here when I felt like some talked with an air of I know more, and if you'd just listen...:-)I try to listen to the messages and not focus on the messenger and take what is helpful from whatever the source. And, like Carol, I would like to hear more discussion of some things you know (though expect derogatory remarks from Dick) I'll start you off with a question--in daily affairs, as situations present, how do you apply the "One Taste" wisdom? For example, I hear my children fighting--is coming from nondual consciousness healing just in its presence, or would it "do" something about the screeching? Application to my life is what I'm looking for :-)

Anyway, guess I should go play mediator...

Bright Blessings!

Cathy

PS I thought Hadi's use of us/we was okay because he was explaining an idea in response to a direct question...this topic came up before, remember? I like Carol's approach also--to assume that people are expressing their own opinions whatever words they choose--I/we/whatever--it helps to try to be clear, but it is easy enough to not be clear--so allowing people that benefit of the doubt sorta frees the discussion---IMHO ;-)

C

Carol, speaking just for myself, your example is still shining brightly and wisely. I can sense real desire from you for some of these inter-personal tensions to ease, and I share your hope for that to happen. This is probably the kind of situation you asked about recently in how best to reach out to people who are at odds with each other.

Since you asked whether you should refrain from more comments (I just did the same thing with Bob) I think I will follow Bob's intelligent and non-committal approach to say that that is totally up to you and dependent on circumstances. Your judgment has been great so far and I trust you to make the comments that you feel are appropriate at the appropriate time.

Maybe a good tack for all of us is to change the subject to something a little less divisive and see if a fresh approach to a fresh subject might ease the tensions. There's just so many lashes a dead horse can take! :-)

Anybody got a fresh topic worth batting about? How about Thanksgiving plans? Is that sacrilegeous at this point?

By the way, Carol, I meant to second your motion on how great is is to be able to converse with people all over the world. That's one of the big plusses to this forum. Another one that impresses me is something Bob said today: there aren't all that many places on the web (that I have found) where the sorts of topics we get into here are dealt with as personally and as thoroughly. It's a forum worth keeping alive, and trying to make better.

It takes all of us for it to be good, and those temporary alliances and friendships are like Kate has said: great when they're there and sad when they dissolve. (Hadi said something similar in his own way). But life goes on and things change. We do have to learn to adapt, each in our own way. And some of us have been trying to learn that for a long time, but are still in student mode. Maybe we'll be students as long as we keep at it.

How trustworthy is this man who claims he's not bitter?

haha! Peggy, the more the merrier and if the Nasdaq continues to fall, i will be moving into that tent sooner than later. :(

as for the Court this day, i was very impressed and hope they come to a quick decision of the election, but if you noticed my post earlier, i don't see it happening, soon. :(

Hadi, Dave, Peggy, Kate, & Bob, i pray that the dialogue continues and these issues can be worked out by all concerned. overall, i believe that spirituality starts here and now and until these issues are addressed by each of you they will continue to be a control-ing feature that repeats itself thru your lives.

also, if you would prefer that i make no more comments one way or the other, i will respect your wishes but please know that my heart is hoping for your quick reconcilation of these issues, if any way possible.

Carol, I want you to know that I am a little bit pouty because I didn't get invited to the tent meeting. If I promise to tell some good "hot dog" jokes, can I come?

I was impressed today with the Florida Supreme Court. In my mental casting of the movie about this fiasco, there is one Justice that I would cast with Paul Newman. ;-) Very dramatic and dynamic.

After all of the spin and political pundits, it amazes me when people can come up with new questions and insights.

Cathy, I don't usually spend much time watching or reading the news although I am concerned about specific issues and keep tabs through newsletters and the internet and take action from time to time. More about that in my next post.

Kate, I love projection. It's just a good job that I haven't been baited or under ultra personal attack these past few months, right?. "Arrogant" "Sexist" "Homophobic" "Proselytizer" not to mention the catalogue of insults from Dick Skepp over the same period, and the inference that I'm not good enough to be friends with you guys, and the judgements about me and Grace, our relationship, Grace's intelligence and her ability to be able to discriminate, that you guys know my mind better than her (what an arrogance!), and not to mention the outright lies, like the claim that I said "All feminists were lesbians", no baiting going on there, was there? No ultra personal remarks. And of course, at every turn, this new friend of yours is applauded for his wit, his reason, his sharpness. You simply don't see how hateful he is. Why, because he is embarrassing me. You have collectively attempted to humiliate me, like a pack of tabloid journalists or, perhaps even like those three guys driving the jeep, with me being dragged behind. Should I, as Chris suggests forgive you? Are you feeling proud, popping up behind masks pretending you have a quorum? When all along it's just the usual suspects.

After all the baiting and the way you poked fun at Bob and Denis and Carol and everyone for their beliefs, I come along and post something thought provoking and I am accused of baiting. And then there's this constant need to control, to tell me what kind of language I should use, what type of intonation is acceptable, what kind nouns, pronouns, how specific I should be. Control issues, gender issues, ego issues.

Let me know when the mist settles, Kate. I'll still be here for you.

There are personal and private issues concerning me that I would prefer not to see addressed here. I don't think that anyone can say that I haven't been a fairly open person. But I assume that some things can remain private. This is the second time that I feel that my confidence has been violated by one person within the last month or so -- and inaccurately so, at that.

Bob, just for the moment, imagine the two of us sitting under a lilac bush and just talking straight on.

I have been touched by your ability to pick yourself up, recenter and begin again. I respect that ability. Also, your openness about some of the difficulties you may be going through strike a chord with me. That takes a lot of courage. I would guess that you are in a continual process of going within and reaccessing yourself. That is one way that you and DaveR are very much alike.

You were right about walking the talk. I was already going to post to you about that very thing. In many ways, the messenger is as important to me as the message. When you teach by example, as you have in the last couple of days, I am much more open to what you say.

It is my own opinion, and I realize that we may differ here, that we are not in a position to judge the spiritual development of others. (I confess, I do it too, but I try not to.) There is so much that we don't know about each other -- not just us, but everyone here -- that judgment would be based on incomplete knowledge. None of it is as simple as it seems. When we put ourselves in a position of being above others or ahead of others, that is the very definition of self-righteous.

I truly hope that you and I can be honest with each other, and forgiving, and that we will always return to these lilacs with a willingness to learn.

Namaste, Peggy

good night, Bob! pleasant dreams! :)

Carol - Very cute question!

Answer: Sort of the same way stones fall up through that sieve of yours.

Dave R - I hope you realize I have always been honest with you and most of the time fair as well. There have been a few, unfair, low shots, on my part but in general, it has been a two way street.

I do not care if you choose to address me or not, that is your choice. We have had some meaningful discussions and some not so meaningful. However I think we both get into dangerous territory when we start labeling things with applause & criticism, right & wrong, correct & erroneous, good & bad, etc. It is all just discussion (and B/S for TO's sake).

But in general - yes, a deal!

Namaste'

hey, Bob, how does one dig UP? ;)

Dave & Kate, i am pleased and impressed that you continue to try to reach across the board of mis-understandings that are happening here. i commend you for your efforts and i am pleased that i know both of you.

Peggy asked me about blossoming the other day, well, there is a lot of blossoming going on here and i am happy to be considered a part of this board.

and Kate, i thought your comment to Hadi concerning your feelings about ultra-personal comments and baiting not belong-ing here, was right on!

Kate - As far as I know, there is no select group that is the only one with the truth (if there is, please point me in their direction and put in my application as a humble student).

We are all on the same path, some further than others. Those further down the line can save me some time and point me in the right direction. Maybe I can do the same for those behind me. I have never labeled you in one category or another, I don't know where you are at and I don't care. It is meaningless anyway - there is no rank so to speak - just learning.

I don't envy or feel put down by those here who are witnessing all the time even though they are ahead of me on the path - hopefully no one feels put down by me as well.

Namaste'

Bob, my blood pressure is just fine, and it was when I posted before.

The need for specifics isn't to find out if you were talking about me (I did have that as a high possibility since I have been posting a lot since I decided to give this place another try). I have had my own sabbaticals; I think we all have at one time or another.

I just think if you have somebody in mind who is losing control -- and you think there's more to that than pure observation (hard for me to believe, but then I'm your basic card-carrying skeptic, right?) it would be more effective and proactive to deal with that person or persons as such, not as some vague "they" out there in cyberspace.

One of the keys to making this forum good for all of us -- believers and skeptics alike -- is to be honest and fair with each other. I'm trying to be honest and fair with you, Bob. If you'd rather I never address anything further to you, or to comment about your opinions and beliefs, just say so and it's a done deal. Otherwise, I will applaud you when you say something great, and comment when I think you're in error.

Deal?

Yes - I really, really love being spirit and residing in a human body. The now is perfect in every, every way and everything is as it should be.

Dance / Dance /Dance

The real problem, Bob, is the inference about what others may do or know. Not a one of us knows the inner quest of each other. You've no idea what I do or don't do, think or don't think. Therefore, the generalizations are off-putting, to use that corporate lingo. :-) Why is it a big deal how we go about searching and living? To me, it isn't, until there is an implication that there is a select group that is the only one with the truth. How about some latitude for everyone? I don't think that's too difficult to agree to.

Carol - It is tricky and I seem to be getting in deeper instead of smoothing things out which was my intent.

I will state again for the record "I do not care who knows how much I know or don't know - this is not a game with a scorecard". In reality, there is much more I don't know than I do know - that is a good portion of why I am here.

IMHO we shouldn't end up having these continual battles, it does none of us any good. Somewhat to your point, we will always have divided camps on the issues and the divisions are fairly consistent - that is why there is some confusion that it is a team thingy. It isn't, it is an issue thingy - nothing personal / nothing more.

Namaste'

Dave R - Cool down, go take a nice shower and then read this. I was not referring to you as losing control when I made my post but as time has progressed, you are at the very borderline. Don't you feel your blood pressure rising - that is not a good thing. Though you may not believe this, every implied criticism tossed out here does not have Dave R's name on it.

I am trying to be nice about this. I am not talking about any team whatsoever - put yourself into whatever category you want. I have had my disagreements with Hadi and they are nothing more than differences of opinion. Geoff and I have not had a disagreement so far but give us time. I just want them to stay here rather than run for the hills like I have as well at times in the past.

However, Hadi, Geoff and I (as well as many others here) do have one thing in common. I am referring to those of us who have spent the time meditating and personally exploring the ways of the ancient mystics and have experienced for ourselves of what they speak. Either one knows what I am talking about or one doesn't. It was not meant to be a criticism.

I just feel this is a unique place where those who fit into the category can discuss what we know, what we don't know, what we have experienced and how we can further evolve. There is no other place like this for us. Naturally, if someone doesn't know or believe, there are numerous sites they can go to do the same thing at - but not for us who know.

This is not about taking sides, me or you, we or them - it should be all of us!!!

Namaste'

hi Bob, just post about what you know. i love reading your posts and Hadi's and Geoff's.

and yes, there is a lot of ignoring, forgetting and forgiving that must happen for a spiritual person. ask Jesus? i often wonder, when i read these sceptical and doubting posts, if that is what put Him on that cross? but, nevertheless, i am going to continue to express myself in spite of the doubting Thomas-es and crosses.

so please, dearOne, know that there are many that read your posts and know that you know what you know, heh! this is getting trickier!! but i love this human condition, don't you?

Bob, there goes that team business again. Do you think Hadi and Geoff consider themselves a team? Do you think they include you? Is that a big deal for you? Is your awareness dependent on their acceptance of you?

Many moons ago, Hadi expressed a desire to have me on his team and I declined, on the basis that I don't join teams. I like things like chess where I win or lose based on how I perform or don't. At least I know who to credit or blame. Teams are okay. But does there have to be a spirituality team before it's any good? Must there be this quest to convert and persuade others to join the team? What if you're on a losing team? Do you want us all to go down with the same sinking ship?

Bob and TO, if you have anyone in mind who is "losing control" would you please specify who that is? If you don't have someone in mind, what is the point of the schoolboy tactics? We're adults here, I think (not knowing everyone's ages), and if you have a gripe or an observation, just make it. If you're afraid somebody will object to it, then either make or don't, depending on whether their objection matters to you. But these casual generalizations that assume others know what you're talking about are nothing more than divisive tactics. And they are petty.

Who is losing control? Who even had control? What control are you even talking about? Is somebody keeping you from saying just exactly what you want to say? What does that say about you? Where is your control?

Hadi & Geoff - We find ourselves in somewhat the same boat. We know what we know and yet we cannot get a few to even consider the possibilities. We are criticized by anonymous posters who do not have the guts to state where they are coming from without using a mask. We are passionate in our quest, we get frustrated and, at times, we wonder why we bother reading or posting here.

I contend that we subject ourselves to some of these negatives because there are very few places like this. As you said a fair while back Hadi - only a small portion of 1% of the population know what we know. This is one of the few places where we can meet and discuss these things in real time. Books are great but we need this element as well - why else would we subject ourselves to some of the abuse we occasionally receive???

It is difficult and I loose it at times, but we should try and walk the talk and ignore the peanut gallery that is busting our chops. Otherwise, we are doing our own quest more harm than good. IMHO

Namaste'

The two ladies sharing your cosy pew may not even have been talking to each other if it hadn't been for my caring and concerned intervention a couple of years back, when they weren't talking to each other either, and I was a genuine friend.

welcome back hadi!

Hadi, you're right that my name was not mentioned in your remarks, and that they were directed to Cathy. Is it your position that any post of yours that starts with someone's name is to be disregarded by all others? If that's true, I would suggest e-mail as a preference for sending that private message. I can abide by your preference if you will state it.

For the record, anything I post to an individual can be interpreted and responded to by anyone here. There are other methods available to carry on more private conversations and exchanges and I use them frequently. This is, as I interpret it, a public forum, accessible to all who choose to read here, and even to post here. Comments made are, in effect, public. We may wish to focus an individual's attention on some point, either as response to something that person has said or asked, or because we have something special we might like to say without more than just the wish to say it. I often greet individuals for no good reason except to say "Hi" but I do that in full awareness that others are likely to see it and maybe even respond to it, too.

The main issue I had with your post to Cathy was the choice of pronouns, and your statement: "By the way, Cathy, my use of we and you has not been intended as specific to YOU or US. I'm talking about the tribe and it's members." which seemed, by implication to include others beyond you and Cathy. If that wasn't your intent, then maybe that closing comment was superfluous?

I bear you no ill will, Hadi, and if your sense of where this forum ought to be going were expressed in more specifics, I might be able to accommodate your wishes better. As I said in an earlier post, the vagueness of your objection was almost pointless, except the general displeasure you felt. If you want to point to some specifics, please do. If you just want to grumble in a general way, go right ahead and I will ignore it.

The movie connection is at least something we do have in common. Maybe we could use that common ground to find we have even more in common, without continuing to dwell on where we differ.

My best wishes to you, and yours.

Someone once wrote "The only constant is change," and I took it much to heart since both what I could see and not see appeared to substantiate that claim. This place exemplifies it amply! Changes in relationships are, of course, the most difficult with which to deal because when things are going well we don't want them to change. When that alters, it is up to all parties to try to figure out what changed, but principally, the parties can make that change negative or positive. That's difficult because change is one thing humans do resist, bless them, and personal perceptions just litter our paths all the time. I don't want to belong to any "camps," and I want to believe in change being worked out on the positive side. I think I've seen change in a lot of people who post here and I think the changes have been good ones. However, my feelings is that ultra-personal comments and baiting don't belong here--and Hadi, this comment is directed to you. But that's only a personal desire on my part. Just stating my feelings.

Judy in disguise, well that's what you are
Lemonade pie with a brand new car
Cantalope eyes come to me tonight
Judy in disguise with glasses

Keep a-wearing your bracelets and your new rara
Cross your heart - yeh - with your living bra
Chimney sweep sparrow with guise
Judy in disguise with glasses

Come to me tonight, come to me tonight
Taking everything in sight
Except for the strings on my kite

Judy in disguise, hey that's what you are
Lemonade pies hey got your brand new car
Cantalope eyes come to me tonight
Judy in disguise with glasses

Come to me tonight, come to me tonight
Taking everything in sight
Except for the strings on my kite

Judy in disguise, well what you aiming for
A circus of horrors, yeah, well that's what you are
You made me a life of ashes
I guess I'll just take your glasses

The Florida Supreme Court is between a rock and a hard place. If they make the decision one way, they will be contested by the Florida Legislature. And if they make the decision the other way, they will be contested by the Federal Legislature.

as for the the comments about the Forum being better, now. well, i can't actually say i feel it is better as i always thought it was great! how do we get better than great, heh! and i have always said i would prefer that the anon posters took off the mask!! still feel that way......

Hadi, the birthday wish was to Grace. if i am wrong i apologize but i thought i remembered that she had a Nov b-day?

Like attracts like;
Cosmic Law.

Dave, did I even mention your name? I was explaining my earlier comment to Cathy. On request. And I can disagree with Kate or anyone about anything. I don't see why you have to go balistic every time somebody has a different opinion to your team. I did say it was my opinion. Why are you so defensive?

My comment about the sulphur was a reference to Dick Skep, since he had been particularly caustic. However, if you are Dick, then that would explain a lot. Kate: you posted this after I had composed and hit the send button on my post to Cathy.

"Just a little clarification: I'm not saying "don't argue." I like good debates and argument and discussions... I'm saying "don't proselytize" as if I were a slug in your garden."

Thanks for the clarification. I thought you were suggesting something more indiffirent. Sorry for misunderstanding you, but I think you saw how that was possible.
Thankfully, I have had many warm welcomes, so it hasn't all been negative. Thanks for your love and appreciation, Dave. it was never in doubt ;).

I had no one on my mind as I composed for Cathy, I was just expressing how I see things after she had asked me for some clarification. And Dave, it's no news to me that you don't agree with me on most of these issues. I accept that. At least on movies we can find some common ground.

Carol: I just wanted to say thanks to you and Michael for the birthday wish, but I think you must be referring to our anniversary, otherwise you really are late.

Incidentally, believe me, I am not bitter. I'm in quite a good place right now, away from this screen at least. If anything the message is, "Stay away from here, it's bad for your state of balance". I don't like Dick, but I can be honest about it. Ultimately what we see is in the eye of the beholder and some have to make a habit of going back and rereading things before they realise that what was written didn't have the same intonation they had imagined, but in the re-actionary mode the damage is usually done by then.

I do think that the comments about how great things have been was hollow. To ME. That's my opinion. I said so at the time. I'm not emotional about it. Just didn't ring true to "me". But then, hey, i haven't been here in real time, and that makes a great difference, so maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it has been good. Perhaps what Kate was implying was, what made it great is my absence. For her, at least. Who knows, these days?

Dave, one more thing. The two ladies sharing your cosy pew may not even have been talking to each other if it hadn't been for my caring and concerned intervention a couple of years back, when they weren't talking to each other either, and I was a genuine friend.

I certainly haven't changed, I'm championing the same ideas and thoughts as I always have. If anything, in a mellower tone. They, and you, however, are deep admirers of Dick Skepp, whose perpetual hostility and ugly attacks on Bob, myself and now on Geoff appear to be applauded. I ask you, who is in denial?

Real friendships are difficult to form but can be destroyed in moments. I hope you and Dick and the ladies ( ;) )will have many happy nights around the dining table together.

Cheers.

It's a strange, strange world we live in, Master Jack
You taught me all I know and I'll never look back
It's a very strange world and I thank you, Master Jack

You took a colored ribbon from out of the sky
And taught me how to use it as the years went by
To tie up all your problems and make them look neat
And then to sell them to the people in the street

It's a strange, strange world we live in, Master Jack
You taught me all I know and I'll never look back
It's a very strange world and I thank you, Master Jack

I saw right through the way you started teachin' me now
So some day soon you could get to use me somehow
I thank you very much and though you've been very kind
But I'd better move along before you change my mind

It's a strange, strange world we live in, Master Jack
You know how I feel as if I'll never come back
It's a very strange world and I thank you, Master Jack

You taught me all the things the way you'd like them to be
But I'd like to see if other people agree
It's all very int'resting the way you disguise
But I'd like to see the world through my own eyes

It's a strange, strange world we live in, Master Jack
No hard feelin's if I never come back
You're a very strange man and I thank you, Master Jack

You're a very strange man and I thank you, Master Jack
You're a very strange man and I thank you, Master Jack

You're a very strange man - aren't you, Master Jack?

~~~~~~~~light as a feather~~~~~~~~

This is the problem with Nirvana - until we are fully Enlightened, it is fleeting.

Dave R - No major disagreement here - post on.

Hey everyone - lighten up (please).

Namaste'

In any event, I will not be lingering, Geoff. I can still smell sulphur in the air.

I'm so sorry you won't be staying. Don't let the door hit you in the ass as you leave. That foul smell you refer to went away the last time you left and showed up again as soon as you started farting the place up again.

Carol was right about the bitterness.

My feet are cold here.

Kate - Well said.

TO - I think you hit the nail on the head - Some participant(s) feel they must be in control and when they see they can't control, they lose it. Not pointing fingers, just making an observation.

Namaste'

I don't like gutless ex-marines whose brains have turned to marshmellow. But we should all post in a civil manner.

Terry, be specific! Please.

Bob, well said. I think it is highly likely that all who post (or read) here have a whole scale or spectrum of likes and dislikes, and it's even more likely that no two of those scales are in one-to-one correspondence. That is, no two of us like exactly the same things and dislike exactly the same things. That's known as being humans, and being individuals, as I read it.

The one distinction I would like to draw from your post, Bob, is that you listed some specific things that you dislike and that others dislike. As I read Hadi's and Geoff's comments about the past few days/weeks, whatever dislikes they may have had were non-specific and generalized. That could be interpreted any number of ways, all the way from "every post stinks" to "only _____'s posts stink" to "just this specific post stinks" with nothing more than a vague dislike really being stated.

If that's the information we are to deal with from their statements, I think they could have saved the wear and tear on their keyboards and just not posted. The same information would have been passed along.

I have been happy with the level of civility and respect that's been shown by most who have been posting lately. To me, the best chance I have of accepting an opposing or critical view is when it's presented calmly and without venom. Once those factors start arising, the message leaves off and the messenger becomes the focus. I thought we were doing pretty well with allowing messages to be presented in such a manner.

My problem is that if that is what's being objected to, then the accusation is not just a dislike in general, but an unstated objection to the way we are conducting ourselves here. I have objected before when things got "too rosy and light" but have also reacted when things got "too hostile and mean." Somewhere between those extremes is where I felt we were operating, and I would like for it to continue as long as possible.

What you describe is what I had perceived happening, Bob, but there are some who won't look for wisdom in a post if it's written by so-and-so, etc. Too bad. Now *that's* a closed mind in my opinion. I'll read it all, like it or not. As you say, there may be a gem anywhere. If not, what have I spent? A little time? Of course, I also like to post how I feel. If others disagree, so be it. I do happen to think that what we choose to believe, will be. If we cannot allow change and love in our perceptions, then we'll never find them.

Is someone losing control?

Dave R - Personally, I think Hadi and Geoff's posts come from a level of awareness that is a benefit to all of us. Sure, some messages could be delivered in a nicer tone - I am as guilty here as the next party (so maybe are you). However, how the message is delivered is not as improtant to me as the message itself.

You don't like preaching, I don't like blind minded skepticism, I don't like spineless anonymous posters, Hadi and Geoff probably have their dislikes. We all should try and look past our dislikes, post in as civil a manner as we can at the moment and try and grab whatever tid bits of wisdom leak out.

IMHO - Namaste', Bob

Dave, i hope my post didn't seem to be saying that i didn't think you had that right. if it did, it was not my purpose.

my main point of posting is to reflect my viewpoints and even if i pick someone's name out, like Hadi did with Kate's, the post is still a reflection of my viewpoints. imo, Hadi's post shed no reflection on Kate's viewpoints, his post is a reflection of his viewpoints and his alone.

i have said this before, here. and when i post, here, it is my opinion no matter who's name may come up in the post. others do not have to agree with me or even like what i post but it is my right to do so, of course. (unless i don't pay my electric bill,heh!) and of course, that includes everyone.

Is there anything good inside of you
If there is, I really wanna know
Is there anything
Good inside of you
If there is
I really wanna
Know
Is there anything
Good inside of you
If there is
I really wanna
Know
Is there?

Is there any-thaaaang good inside of you
If there is, I really wanna know-woh-oh-oh-oh —
Is there any-thaaaang good inside of you
If there is, I really wanna know, really wanna know . . .

Something
Anything
Something
Anything

Show me a sign
If you don't mind
Show me a sign
If you don't mind
Show me a sign
If you don't mind
Show me a sign
If you don't mind

Do you know what I'm really telling you
Is it something that you can understand
Do you know what I'm really telling you
Is it something that you can understand
Do you know what I'm really telling you
Is it something that you can understand
Do you know what I'm really telling you
Is it something that you can understand

Andy de vine (de vine)
Had a thong rind (rind)
It was sublime (sublime)
But the wrong kind
Andy de vine (de vine)
Had a thong rind (rind)
It was sublime (sublime)
But the wrong kind

Have I aligned
With a blown mind
Wasted my time
On a drawn blind
Have I aligned
With a blown mind
Wasted my time
On a drawn blind

Oh Andy . . .
Andy
Andy, Andy
Thong rind
It was sublime, y'all know
The wrong kind, yeah-hah-hah-hah!
Our man!

Carol, I agree with you that each participant has the right (perhaps the responsibility) to object to things happening here. I was exercising that right, too. I happen to like where things have been going the past week or so, and I think the conversations have been thought-provoking and civil.

Please note that I didn't invite Hadi to leave, as I was asked to leave recently. I said Hadi and Geoff have no requirements to participate if they don't like it.

I have said more times than I like to mention that I hate being preached to. I resent that tone from anybody. I can listen to persuasive arguments and attempts to change my ways of thinking or believing as long as some credit is given to my own opinion. That's what I'm protesting, as it is my right to do.

I appreciate your efforts at peace-keeping, Carol, and for making your observations known. And I am prepared to scroll past any post that bores me or doesn't catch my interest. But when Hadi and Geoff speak their minds about how lousy things have been in the past week or so, I think it's okay for me to say I think they're wrong.

I think Hadi said something about still smelling sulphur in the air. I very much understand his statement. However, I contend there is always the smell of sulphur in the air as well as the smell of lilacs - pick which one you want to concentrate on.

Namaste'

you know, Dave, over the last 4 years i have heard many say they just didn't like the way the Forum was going at that time, so, from my point of view, it is fine if Hadi says it now. don't get me wrong, i am not in disagreement, so to speak, just bringing out that point.

personally, Hadi's post seems to reflect some bitterness towards some here. i may be wrong, (and feel free to correct me) but it seems that way to me. i hope that he may heal that bitterness and continue to post his views here. i would like to see him speak more of his personal viewpoints, tho, rather that using the we, they approach, too.

Hadi, I can accept your statements if you replace all first person plural pronouns with first person singular pronouns. I think you speak for you, no matter what pronouns you use. So maybe speaking for yourself, while appearing more vain and self-serving, would be closer to the facts. I disassociate myself from your "we" and "us" and "our" usages, whether you like it or not, believe it or not, or can even handle the fact that I disagree with you on this topic 100%. You are not my spokesman, you do not speak for me, I disagree with your points.

And if you and Geoff dislike the turn the forum has taken, you are not required to be here. Your congregation, at least the pew I'm sitting on, has tuned you out.

Dickie, regretfully I haven't read your latest posts and I can't be bothered to read any more of them. They are always on the same page> I know you have one or to admirers here. recent converts. But boy, are they in denial!

For you, my shadowy friend.

The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light; but if your eye is not sound, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

Mathew 6:22.

Consider the lillies...

Hi, Cathy. :) Didn't mean to ignore you, just a little busy in my time-zone. Glad you enjoyed the post. ;) You are quite right, that statement isn't terribly clear, is it?

"The problem we have is wanting to believe, because our conditioning causes us to think in a certain way. It's not so much what we think that matters, it's the way we think."

What I mean is that our conditioning prevents us from thinking in creative or innovative ways. We are spoon fed information from when we are young and we are often discouraged from questioning what we are taught by parents, elders and ultimately the State. This type of conditioning leads individuals to be like sheep. To think like sheep. As Ashleigh brilliant put it:

I won't start thinking independently
until I see that everybody else is doing it.

We all put great stock by our intellects, but we singularly fail to recognise that most of our opinions and beliefs have been learned third hand. Not only are they third hand, we really don't question opinions and views when they are shared by the majority. Our tribal conditioning means we do as the tribe. We think as the tribe. We immitate the tribe. We respect the tribe. We also respect our leaders. When we were apes we learned very quickly that "might is right" and where we were once subverted by the fittest, the most savage, the most powerful, people, now we are subverted by their ideas and beliefs. Beliefs which are anchored in religions which promote punishment. More often than not those who go against the state, be it in the form of religion or political dogma, these people are usually persecuted. The symbol of Jesus on the cross is no accident. It is a carefully crafted and promoted reminder of what happens when you go against the prevailing Authority. So we learn to respect the prevailing opinion from up high. We worship their ideas.

Take the case for marijuana. So much nonsense has been taught and spoken about this relatively harmless drug. A substance from which there has never ever been a lethal overdose. From which there has been no direct fatality. Unlike thousands upon thousands of deaths and strokes and heart conditions which have resulted from prescribed drugs and alcohol abuse. Yet, Marijuana remains illegal in most of the Western world and has only become decriminalised in a few isolated cases. I had a lengthy and heated discussion on this subject with some very educated conservative friends of mine whom have never ever actually experienced the substance. That is, they were personally completely ignorant not only of the substance but of the facts about the substance. Yet they had very powerful convictions and arguments against it. Convictions born out of fear and misinformation. When I gave my own experiences of the drug as a first hand argument against their "opinions", for them it was that "I" was an exception. Not everyone could cope with it the way I did. Such nonsense. When I gave the examle of dozens of friends and colleagues, it came down to the fact that intelligent folk were less likely to be poisoned by the stuff. I offered the info on deaths etc., as outlined above and first they wouldn't believe me. Then, one of them said, "Rabies is illegal, and there's a good reason for that, so there must be a good reason why Marijuana is illegal".

You see, Cathy, our conditioning can be so blinding, so rigid, that we don't even notice that our arguments are totally stupid. Because if the prevailing opinion and the State says so, who are we to argue. We have transfered that divine knowledge of the Church to the State, and we think politicians are intelligent way above the reality of their intellects or knowledge. We simply "believe" that they know better than us. We are conditioned to think in this way. But the fact is, they are just people, and they are largely just as ignorant and just as ill informed as the rest of us. Either that, or it is in their interest that we think as we do. Such a person who puts all their trust in the State, or the Church, such a person is capable of great evil. Because all evil is ignorance. And if the State were to say, "your friend is a traitor, he must be hung", such a person would give you up to the State. That's what happened during the McCarthy period. Everyone believed the State about the evil of communists and socialists and a witch hunt ensued. That's what happened with the Jews in Nazi Germany, that's what happened to the Mystics during the Inquisition. Sheep believing the ignorance of others and acting on it. This is a way of thinking. It is a "mind set". It is what I was referring to some months ago as mass hypnosis. Breaking free of this hypnosis is hard, but it can only be done when someone is able to shake you and say, "Wake Up". And people are deeply asleep.

Of course we could take Kate's position, just let everyone get on with it. Don't attempt to wake anyone up. Where would we be today if Ghandi had taken that view? If Martin Luther King had simply shrugged his shoulders? If the young Siddartha had stayed at home with his toys, would not the world be poorer today? Were these people prosyletizing? They were not trying to convert anyone to a religion. They trying to wake them and and show them their unrealised potential.

By the way, Cathy, my use of we and you has not been intended as specific to YOU or US. I'm talking about the tribe and it's members. I hope that's a bit clearer and not too long winded.

Namaste'.

Geoff: I know what you mean about the recent archives. In answer to the person who asked where you've been during these hollow self serving exchanges, I would have to say thank god YOU were HERE.

I don't agree that your posts were nonsense. Tangential, maybe. Goofy perhaps. But irrelevant nonsense, never. It is the quality of your posts from which I learn, Geoff. The same goes for Chris this past year. Your irreverent humour was the best sense to apply to the nonsense of "right and wrong" being debated in recent weeks. I'm not quite sure what it was which for some made for the greatest communication in four years? But, each to their own. Personally I remember many more inspired and enriching times in this room, and I'm sure there will be many more. But that's just my opinion. Just like the comment about how great it's been was Kate's opinion. Sometimes the magic can fade in the mists of love into anger turned.

In any event, I will not be lingering, Geoff. I can still smell sulphur in the air.

I bow. I embrace. ;)

Beauty may be everywhere--and cities have their share of splendor--but if the oxygen supply is depleted because of pollution and trees being destroyed, who'll be there to see/enjoy the beauty?

aaahh! Dave, that was a beautiful story! thanks for sharing...... :)

At least that long, Terry. :-) But I have a vested interest in my kids and grandkids, too. On the outside chance that after I do punch out of here and go to some place where I can "see" what's going on here after I have left, I would hate to see the end of it all in the next generation or two.

You may remember the scare we had a year or so ago with a close-approaching rock (comet or asteroid, I forget which) scheduled to hit the earth and wipe out civilization as we know it. It turned out that Paul Harvey was doing one of those "War of the Worlds" scares that Orson Welles pulled on a national audience in the 30's (?), and immediately pointed out that what he had been describing was not for real.

In the span it took between the first announcement and his retraction, I broke down and cried! Not for my own demise, but for the sense that all of this whole human parade, all the accomplishments and monuments and art and cities and drive-in movies and great writings and music and wars and long periods of dullness -- would all be as if they had never happened. Gone. Poof.

Carol and Dave--thanks :-) Yes, Carol, your post did make sense....I had just come back to quickly post before leaving for our Tday party--I read in Putting on the Mind of Christ about a mystic St Therese, I believe, who said something to the effect that a pile of trash was as beautiful as a pot of flowers--it was all God (don't you just love my precision? ;-)) And it occurred to me this am that Jesus and Buddha didn't talk much about nature and doing (other than the golden rule) as much as they did about being (to my knowledge). Granted, they lived in a much different world but, one would think that if it was a prime issue, it would have been mentioned ;-) Anyway, I think what Therese's comment means to me is that beauty abounds in every circumstance--that whether we have miles and miles of open wilderness or are in a crowded subway train is not really important (though we need a certain amount of wilderness and trees to simply live)So if the earth gets covered with people and we end up with a few wild spots to sustain her and us, no need to be wistful--the beauty is still there--just not necessarily our cherished notion of it...?

Now if I can just take that to heart :-)

Also, Dave and Carol--your comments about doing things differently and learning from mistakes, I concur with--which is a big part of what I do---the letting go of the outcome is what I'm working on :-)

Cathy

Namaste'

At least for as long as you live, huh Dave? (include me too)

Cathy, I accept your confusion over what I said about the fires. I just meant that Nature has its own way, whether we help or not, cause or not, to keep things changing. Your points about human efforts to control fires being something with unforeseen consequences is a good one. Lightning probably gives Smokey the Bear as much heartburn as smokers (especially these days!) and as long as the fires do their own thing, without spreading into populated areas, it's all part of the grand plan. (Well, even that may be part of the Grand Plan).

A show Peggy saw and told me about (missed it myself) was about a species of conifer whose cones explode and scatter seed when temps rise above 140 degrees F. It's like they're just waiting for a fire to begin their cycle all over again.

This extreme of Nature's ways tends to offset the extinctions that mankind has brought to so many species of plants and animals. Others will claim the territory just like humans did the old dinosaur stomping grounds. Some form of life is probably going to be here for long into the future. Let's just hope it's humans for a while longer. :-)

Just a little clarification: I'm not saying "don't argue." I like good debates and argument and discussions... I'm saying "don't proselytize" as if I were a slug in your garden.

my perspective, Cathy, is that we should do things "differently" as much as possible. not holding on to old, outdated ways, etc. this election has "proved" that to me, 100%. other things, too, tho. and i feel we should have respect for all living creatures/entities and this Earth, is just that, a living entity. but ultimately, everything is as it should be and i am peaceful and happy with that knowledge. for me, i know that it is ALL God but i feel we should work as if it is ALL Man. does any of that make sense, heh?

Cathy, thanks for acknowledging that all my "bad news" commentary, and the spinoff to environmental issues, was in response to your request. As I said somewhere in all of that, I don't consider myself a tree-hugger or an "environment over all" advocate. I do have those nostalgic feelings for the good parts of the "good old days" -- perhaps it helps explain my fascination with haiku, many of which manage to evoke strong longing for a better past. But I'm predominantly a humanist and do want what's best for mankind. And I sympathize with the people trying to find their own "little corner of the world" to make their homes and do their work.

It's just that I harbor this feeling that we can have both things with wise planning and execution of sensible plans. Concern over the environment doesn't mean "no progress" and "no development" by any stretch. But I hope the failures we have been able to see and appreciate, like toxic waste, water and air pollution, nuclear hazards, the list is too long, coupled with some basic love of the natural beauty this land used to have, can make all of us better stewards.

One thing is for sure: Nature will reclaim itself, maybe just not the way we hope will allow unlimited human intervention. One of the most poignant sights I have seen in recent times is in Boaz Alabama, on top of Sand Mountain. It's one of those "outlet mall meccas" where people from all over the Eastern US trek to get those bargains they can't seem to find anywhere but Pigeon Forge and Boaz. Right in the middle of that community is an abandoned strip mall, closed for who knows what reason, with boarded-up windows (some of them broken out) and weeds as tall as a 10-year-old kid growing up through the cracks in the parking lot pavement. Bold testimony to what Nature will have reclaimed in another decade or so. Old stores and houses in the countryside say the same thing: humans were here, now they're gone, Nature returns.

Dave--one thing I meant to mention. You said that "Natural disasters accompany the pollution everywhere" regarding the fires in the west--I had understood that the reasons for the fires being so bad was lack of foresight--that is when fires naturally occurred in the past, we put them out instead of letting them burn--we did this for so long that the underbrush/understory etc...was too much--and so when the fires started this last time (and partly due to the particular dryness due to drought) there was no stopping it--too much fuel there...or did you mean something else? Or am I confused? ;-)

Cathy

Regarding this topc that I started about "bad" news....you're depressing me, Dave ;-) Just kidding--I just occassionally let it get me---there is actually a lot of good stuff going on, changes being made that don't get a lot of press. Even with urban sprawl, they have come up with new ways to plan cities--like in Boulder (I believe) CO--it has a name which escapes me, but the idea is to keep the population more centralized so that people can walk to shops etc...or take transit...and, Carol, similar to you, when I see new subdivisions etc...I kinda hate it, but think well, these are people wanting a home--we just have more people than before---whatcha gonna do? Overpopulation is really my biggest concern...but, then I think of Barbara Marx Hubbard who talks of the possibility of all the technology and the population being part of what will prompt space travel and habitation....who knows? I do know there's no going back to how it was, and I certainly love much of what the modern world offers me :-) I just want to save X amount of wild places and make the places we have more critter friendly and cleaner etc...

Kate and Geoff--you guys are right, I think, about "why argue?"--but I don't think arguing is all bad either--on rare occassions it might actually bring people to new understandings and it can also cause one to rethink their own ideas---though I admit that often it does neither of these things :-) Still, a nice ideal--which I have seen exemplified here and admired :-)

Then there is the people that ask for other's ideas and input--like me, now...I was hoping for some response to my "bad" news querie from those of you who have seen "IT" as TO says, a cosmic perspective, if you will :-) Are you guys peaceful and happy because you feel it ultimately doesn't matter what we do to our "playground"? Or because you think we need to think differently to do well by our current one? I do try to not wallow in the "bad" things I hear and instead focus on all the efforts I see to make things better. And to embrace change and the unknown--easier said than done :-) I also just try to let it go--do what I can, love where I am, and trust in the process...again, not always easy :-)

Carol, case in point, I also love that I can "converse" with people from around the world in this easy manner...pretty cool, eh?

Have a good one!

Cathy

D2 - How could I forget you - you are one of my favorites. Ron G called this morning - he went to Agra on the spur of the moment and said it was a great seminar. More when I hear more.

Namaste'

Hadi - Welcome back

Chris V - The new 4th category sounds the best to me.

Carol - Don't feel bad on your office - mine is still under construction as well. Besides, I am my own carpenter so it may be a while.

Dave R - I hiked the full Appalacian Trail through the GSMNP in the late 60s and have been back numerous times since. Yes, it has changed - some for the worse - but it is still beautiful.

Geoff - Nothing to say - just hi.

Namaste'

i am too, Kate! :)

Here's A LINK to Roger Ebert's review of "Bulworth" for those whose interest may have been piqued by the comments thus far.

Crown/Harmony Books

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