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Seems I'm apologising a lot lately! Dick, I made that post about your link before fully reading it. It does mention chemical balances & imbalances toward the end of the file. I really should make sure my brain is switched off before logging onto this Forum. Oops, is that another typo?

On the subject of experiences and chemicals in the brain, I'm sure the experience of being in love alters the chemicals in the brain but I'm equally sure most human beings would object to any suggestion that this experience of love is simply the result of changes in brain chemistry. :) So there may be a causal link between experience and brain chemistry but which is 'cause' and which is 'effect' is debatable.

Lovely words, Cathy. And Richard. Keep it up.

Merry Christmas one and all.

Hi Richard, i am NOT, let me repeat, NOT watching TV!!! :)

Hi All,

I would like to echo, that the forum jas been quite interesting/fun/informative and thoughtful, of late.

Geoff, appears your pizza and pepsi account is quite safe. I think every attorney, broadcaster, and pundit (?) will be in Florida until the spring 2070. Carol, I hope your State doesn't sink under the weight of these "New Carpet Baggers"

Cathy, I did just go about my business. But as I am a "stepper", that includes prayer and meditation with fellowship attendance. I did not ask for the illness to be removed (never really thought to), it was a shocking and wonderful surprise when I was informed. My sister claims that I have a seriously over worked Guardian Angel. I do know personally two others, in my fellowship, that have had the HCV removed and are clean and healthy.

Dave, I don't know what to say, but I hope you continue to heal. When I look at the miracles I have been blessed with, I always see those others who probably deserved it more than myself. I don't know why I was chosen, just that I was. I am very grateful, and try to live that gratitude.

Just found an interesting site -

The Neurology of Spiritual Experiences

Pleasnat Dreams

Dick--you don't strike me as looking to be moved by other perspectives :-)I suppose that most of us here are not in fact looking to be swayed in our understandings either. I'm not. Personally I am here looking for input and to hear how others perceive things to help in forming my own world view---so I guess we're even ;-) The reason I say that you don't seem open to new views is based on my perception of you which is that you are open only to the standard approach to understanding things, the rational approach...and the rational approach has many many merits. But spirituality, by its very nature is somewhat "irrational" or perhaps beyond reason--it is about things unseen and largely immeasurable (although one might measure certain "feats") But these feats are not the essence of spirituality. It's like love in many ways--which is often not rational, is unseen, immeasurable by any concrete means and which may have unpredictable results. it's like other things that are real but nevertheless beyond the scope of examination by science--honor, wonder, respect etc...and just as with spirituality, many "use" these things in dishonest ways, making claims for selfish reasons etc...but it does not negate the reality of these "things" just as people who claim they can cure your cancer for money and without real ability don't negate those who actually can and do heal people of various ails out of love and a sense of service.

Anyway, I apologize if my perecption of you is off or is offensive somehow (may be my ignorance showing ;-))...but there it is...I would sincerely be interested in what topics you might find interesting or worthy of discussion...you know you really might like Ken Wilber--he does not negate the significance of the physical realm and is very "logical" in his understanding/explanation of things--though he is a mystic--big drawback, eh? He even pokes fun at some New Age thought :-) I've only read his "A Brief History of Everything"--but I thought it was good.

Good nightall!

Cathy

Thanks for the link, Dick, though it speaks of the structure of the brain rather than the chemical 'balance' of it which is what I was wondering about.

All of which raises more questions than it answers really. I mean we can study the physical make up of our brains but only in a very limited way. It's like the old joke - if our brains were simple enough for us to explain them we would be too stupid to understand the explanation. :)

And no amount of studying the physical mechanism of the brain really sheds any light on such questions as what is a thought? where do thoughts come from? where do they go? what is consciousness? who is the thinker behind the thought and where is he/she? and why does he keep losing my socks?

Namaste

D2, thanks for sharing your experience. i wish i had been there.

thanks, Bob! :)

dear D2, i hope you don't mind a little advice, do not allow others dis-belief to diminish your joy. Listen to Kate, too, :) and try not to take dis-agreement personal.

Kate, picture me, you and Cathy in a tent? too funny! bring on the marshmellows!!!

Cathy, i didn't feel you sounded critical, at all.

Cathy, I understand your concern for my lack of hope for the dying. I would be dishonest to say that's likely to change. It could, of course. Never say never. But my outlook has been seriously modified by events. It's easy enough to talk hope and to expect something out of the ordinary to happen. It's just that those things haven't worked -- for me.

Bob mentioned being aware of the miracles around me -- day to day -- and I am aware of them and marvel at them. I do hope for many things, in spite of the odds against them. Peace and harmony are two things I hope for. The evidence is strongly against such things, but I do continue to hope.

Thanks for your comments, Cathy. I sense genuine concern, and I appreciate it.

Being moved by another perspective is exactly what I'm going for Cathy.

My opinions are subject to constant change, but it usually takes more than heresay and wanting to believe to change them.

And it's not that I don't think many of you are equally comitted - quite the contrary.

Dave--

That was a sad story about your first wife--having worked in the ER for 10+ years, I saw a good bit of death and dying...it certainly is an intriguing subject for me--your comments about religion being for the living were interesting...I see where you're coming from...Bernie Seigel said once that what many people learned when faced with cancer was that "not dying" wasn't necessarily the goal---death did not mean defeat. The primary thing was learning how to live, whether that included a healing or not...that's my perspective...like Peggy, I am not afraid of death (I say this as a young woman in good health ;-))but I think many are, and I think cancer can sometimes be a reason to examine this fear and move through it (not always, of course)...anyway, I hate that you have given up hope for the dying--though, I'm glad it helps you suffer less when they die :-)

Carol--let me know when you put up the tent--I'll bring marshmellows for roasting ;-) I didn't mean to sound critical that you like a neat house??--my husband would love for me to have such a "curse" ;-)

Dick, I find it interesting that you think it's fine for you to stick to your opinions and world perspective, but think that many of us here should not be equally committed to what we think, and be moved by another perspective. That it certainly a difficulty of the human condition as I see it--as I mentioned before--being committed to learning but knowing the limits of our knowledge and when to move on to new knowledge...all tricky business...knowing when to "be influenced" as it were...I suppose simply considering what's being presented is the best we can do--and making our own deductions...

Blessings! Cathy

I like a neat house, too. A friend occasionally chides me (in a friend-ly way) that I'm so "tidy"! She hasn't looked in the drawers. Bet you and I would be hell together in a tent! :-)

Wrong page! "I then remembered why I stopped playing, there are a few here who could even depress the Dalai Lama." You should be feckin' ashamed. There's been more effort to talk with each other and understand each other in the past week than in the past four years! Take five and appreciate that, ok?!

...teeth like razors.

I wish I learned chess. I am dealing with the Venture Capital sharks now and a nice game of chess to solve the negotiation issues would do well now...

I offered to teach them how to play poker, for some reason they declined... I cannot understand why.

However...

Trying to figure out how to deal with the concept of death of the body and disease and karma and lessons and choices and, and, and... are all hard topics.

This past week we buried my wife's 87 year old grandmother who lived a full life, was active and just (poof) transitioned suddenly and peacefully. We also learned today that a young (45) woman who used to work at our sauna who developed the most aggressive fast-moving malignant brand of cancer known (that was diagnosed on 01 October) died last Wednesday.

Even 'knowing' that there is more to life than this physical body and miracles occur every day, I still sit and wonder about all of the above. While non longer asking why ? I try to make connections. Sometimes they are clear and I can 'see' them, other times I cannot.

It doesn't stop the search. It's like building a jigsaw puzzle, sometimes entire sections of the puzzle come into view, other times, you cannot figure out even where the borders are...

Carol, not really. Unless you were there, words cannot adequately explain the experience. Since very few here experienced it, everyone else gets to second guess and poke fun at it.

It is truly amazing to me that in an amazing room on the campus of the University of California San Diego, half the people there experienced something very special, personal and private yet here only a mob tabloid sensationalism mentality seems to be all that really matters.

I found it to be a phenomenal experience. For me, many of the mantras learned from Dr. Chopra (and since then others) were helpful to me -- each in their time. I have since moved on and found a meditation technique from the SRF (Self-Realization Fellowship - Paramahansa Yogananda) folks that seems to resonate and at this present moment works better for me.

The key is in the last four words - works better for me. We are all different and have different experiences. For some the answer is TM, others PSM, still others bow in prayer to Mecca five times each day (something onederful I watched a man do in complete devotion one afternoon in a rest area parking lot), and still others sit and pray quietly or sing loud Hallelujiahs in church. And you know what, whatever works for them is great.

I jumped on the DaveR bandwagon to have a bit of fun, not realizing (yes, again) how gosh darned serious every word is taken here.

I then remembered why I stopped playing, there are a few here who could even depress the Dalai Lama.

Bob, 10-4 on the openness factor!

Your own openness is to be commended, too. You have shared some things lately that may have been painful or frightening to say, but the sensitivity you're showing is not going unnoticed.

The struggle you are going through with your ego -- and your awareness of the changes taking place -- has to be scary.

If it will help at all, I have been in that same sort of place, too. It's one of those things that's great to have lived through -- if you can just live through it!

You will, Bob. Just keep plugging away.

Wow - What great posts over the last few days.

Brad - Welcome

DF - Thanks, your inputs are on the money and I am trying.

Dave R - Now that is one thing I never could get a handle on - Chess. I learned how to play but always got creamed. Enjoy the kids! Also, you don't have to believe in levitation, auras, etc. to see miracles - don't you see miracles around you all the time? What about the kids, Peggy, the morning sunshine, etc.??

Carol - I too like your more open posts (though I love your quotes as well). Don't worry about walking a line between two friends with different opinions - just come from where you are at - both will understand.

TO - Wow to you as well, Carol's openess must be catching. I can especially relate to your questioning phychosis based on what is going on, if you didn't know there was more to you. Of late, I really feel like I am losing my mind as well (and I am). I keep bouncing from one level of awareness to another, up and down like a yo yo, and the psychotic question does arise from time to time. I think my mind and ego know their days are numbered and they are fighting like hell to survive. Geoff's stories of transformation also ring a similar tone. I guess it is the price of going into personal unchartered territority.

Namaste'

Dick, if I may be so bold, that's the ultimate statement of a true skeptic!

If you encourage others not even to believe what you say but to do their own individual thinking and reasoning and questioning, then that's the most detached one can be from the principles one adheres to.

If the quest for understanding doesn't stop with being on the right side but in having an answer that make sense to you then the battle is half-won.

The other half consists of continuing to look for a better answer.

Thanks Dave! I'm glad you find it helpful. The others can keep questioning my motives. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Dick, thanks for locating those things to help answer Geoff's concerns. Your links have been some of the most helpful contributions to the discussions here in the past few weeks. And your own observations always help to restore some balance to things before they tip too far in any one direction.

D2 said, "When you believe it you will see it..."

Therein lies the problem. The belief then influences what you see. And what you don't.

Thanks, Carol!

that last paragraph says it all, Dave! :)

Richard, I'd like to echo what Cathy said about your post. I had a similar sense of jealousy about your experiences and had to question why those things haven't happened to me -- yet.

When my first wife died, of cancer-related complications, I had this irrational hope that her case would be like the ones in the movies where some miracle would happen to extend her life. We were even told by the doctors treating her that even though she had a massive aortal cancer that chemo would allow her to have a reasonable lifestyle for a long time to come. Then, as a result of the chemo's destruction of her immune system, a pesky bug called pseudomonus attacked her through a little infection on her leg and there was nothing in their arsenal of antibodies to combat it.

I was thinking, right up to the end, that her life would be spared, that they would have a cure, that something would intervene to save her, and when the end came I was totally in shock that she was gone. I had allowed myself to expect her recovery without even considering that she wouldn't.

Since her death I've withheld hope for the dying. My parents and her parents have all left by now. I didn't expect any miracles for any of them. None came. Their lives had been full and long and old age (along with cancer in two cases) helped to take them away. And my grief over their passing has been much less severe.

Their religious beliefs, in all cases, are not an issue for me. They were all convinced that prayer and trust in the Almighty had value. Whatever comfort it gave them while alive was of minimal value in extending their lives. That's one of the lessons my life has taught me: religion is for the living, as are funerals. If it helps you make it through the hard times, so much the better. But one of these days it won't help any longer.

For those who have had the miracles and the special experiences that are discussed here, I can say I'm glad for you. But for those like me who have yet to see the miracles in our own lives, I can just ask for a little understanding that it's not the same for everybody. Some get it, some don't. It's like poker. Some win, some lose.

Being able to continue living, however our beliefs assist us, is the challenge we all must face in our own ways. Patience, tolerance, and compassion are about all we can really share -- in my opinion. It's good to hear the stories of miracles and auras and levitation. But, as others have said here, they are not the point. How we live the ordinary days and nights, and how we share our ordinariness are the point -- as I see and feel it.

thank you, Dave & Cathy for your input on my question about remaining friends with two people that is at odds with each other. your comments are greatly appreciated.

Cathy, why do i like my home clean and orderly? why is it so important to me? damned if i know. i know my life would be simpler if i just didn't care but i do and i become uncomfortable when it gets ahead of me. one thing is, it seems to reflect my state of mind, imo. if i am calm and feeling good about things it usually shows in my surroundings. maybe it is a control issue as, Dave, has put it. i'm not really sure. i will give it some more thought, tho, and maybe after this wonderful therapy of talking to you-all about it, i will be able to move into a tent and say to hell with all that other stuff, heh! ;)

On Saturday, November 18, 2000, Geoff (Peg)@203.12.152.23 said:

The conventional psychiatric 'wisdom' is that the hallucinations and delusions and disordered thinking associated with schizophrenia is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. You'd expect such a claim to be suported by some hard evidence. I am unaware of such evidence if it exists.

Researchers have used modern techniques to show the differences between the brains of people with schizophrenia and those of mentally healthy people. Specialized tests that produce images (scans) of the inside of the brain show differences in the size and shape of certain brain structures in people with schizophrenia compared with those of mentally healthy people. For example, in people with schizophrenia, there is enlargement of the fluid-filled cavities of the brain called ventricles. Similarly, there is a decrease in the size of the part called the hippocampus. Other tests have shown that in the brains of people with schizophrenia there is less activity in the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that governs thought and higher mental functions.

The National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and Affective Disorders

Just trying to help increase your awareness Geoff!

Terry, I enjoyed your longish post and thank you for the effort that went into it.

Your observations about CNN (and it applies to the media in general, I suspect) might make for a topic to be examined. At least I have been having similar thoughts to what you've expressed.

On the one hand, I can see media types trying hard to be objective, while, at the same time, trying to apply their inside knowledge and experience in helping us not privy to the same inside details to get that same slant. That's a very thin and dangerous line, I think!

When you factor in the competitive aspect of networks and news services wanting to be fast AND accurate, but mostly fast, it becomes a hard thing to weigh in all its complexity.

As to the self-fulfilling prophecy of it, to whatever degree individuals use the news media as their prime source of information, they're likely to get as much spin and slant as information, especially if they limit their input to one or just a few source(s).

We've been splitting our input between CNN and MSNBC since they're the ones that appear to be devoted -- around the clock -- to covering the election situation. Their slants are similar, but I see MSNBC trying as hard to gain rating points against the more established CNN combine as they are presenting the news as such. More bragging about being number one.

These are additional factors to weigh in to the whole fairness issues, and to what degree they're just making noise.

Being skeptical of news reporting is one of the first places to exercise that "critical thinking" thing. Disbelieving a large percentage of it is wiser than just buying in to the spin. Unfortunately, the relative speed of getting TV versions of facts (and interpretation of them) also dilutes the potential validity of those long-range implications. So, I see it as highly unlikely that the "self-fulfilling prophecy" will happen the way CNN or MSNBC are spinning it, but I can understand why they must play that game.

If viewers became readers, and spent their time reading well-considered and patient analysis, they'd be days or weeks getting the news they could get almost immediately from the TV.

A two-edged sword!

I always "read" my post--and then see new ones I want to respond to--stop it! ;-)

TO

Thanks for sharing...I think I have a better glimpse of what "IT" is :-)

Carol

I meant to respond to your sharing about things you take seriously--I wasn't expecting housekeeping to be one--likely because I'm not much of a housekeeper :-) Why do you think a neat house is important to you? Again, if I'm not being too nosey :-)One reason that occurs to me as a possibility is the valuing order which implies a certain intelligence (as is evidenced in nature). I am more of a sporadic valuer of order :-) I let things go, but at some arbitrary point, it's too much and I clean :-)

Bye again! Cathy

Lots of activity here :-)

Richard

How neat about your health experiences--just like out of a Bernie Seigel book! :-) I think possibly one problem people have with hearing stories such as yours is that they have guilt about why they can't get such a healing or wonder why their friend or relative still died...know what I mean? I read an article many years ago in East/West magazine or some such about this very topic. It was talking about the idea of creating our own reality and how this led to shame, frustration, and guilt people then felt when they couldn't cure themselves of some big illness. It also discussed the lack of compassion from "friends" and family who became angry with the sick person for not "wanting" to get well. Or not enough. Personally, I think that while we create our realities, it's not all conscious creation for most of us....and therefore sometimes we might choose to die of cancer or whatever for reasons we aren't aware of--now we can do the work and become aware...but it requires effort :-)

Just curious--when you said you'd just hope for the best regarding your hepatitis...did you actively "do" anything--like prayer or visualization, or did you just let it go and assume it'd be okay? My closet call with a serious illness was when I had an HIV needle stick when I was still working in the ER. Yuk! Of course, statistically, you're pretty safe even then, but the worst case scenario was unsettling. I learned to rely on God a bit more in the year that followed in which I had testing done :-)

Geoff--you are soooo funny :-) I followed your post, but sorry, can't explain it back to you--it wouldn't be near so entertaining :-)

Carol

Your question is a good one--I think there could be a lot of variables that would determine how you might want to be--how close are you to what has caused the being at odds? If you witnessed what went on, do you have an opinion or thought that one or the other was "out of line" or mean or whatever? Are they pressing you to take sides? I have a similar situation with my sister who harbors anger against my parents and complains to me about them. I've pretty much forgiven them for screwing me up ;-) When she is bemoaning their weird ways, I know she wants me to commiserate, but I don't want to...I usually just say nothing and she typically stops the tirade...at times I have tried to suggest that she let it go--but she's not ready for that--gets mad. I do think it's possible to tell people that you love them but that you don't want to be involved in their disagreements. They usually resist that and feel that you should "understand" their side :-) From my experience, anyway...

A happening Saturday to you all!

Cathy

As I've mentioned before, I don't think there is a term (word) that would encompass the "state" other than impersonal, but that doesn't really apply totally, because the energy being experienced, along with the loving/harmonious feeling needs to be channeled somewhere. Of course one can go hibernate (cave in the Himalaya's-ha) and get lost, but as I keep repeating, we must honor our Dharma.

That includes both given, and created, Karma.

Ahhhhhhhh Sooooooooooooooooo!

BTW, isn't the presidential thingee great! I LOVE how those CNN a__h___s have already outlined the next four years for us. Ever hear of "self fulfilling prophecy's"?(sp?)

Guess I've done enough for today, and must be about someone's(?) business.

Have a great weekend.

Within us there is a “place” of calmness, peacefulness, harmony—LOVE. I like the saying “there was stillness on the deep” (something like that), as it reflects that place. It’s the state of consciousness we were in when we came into this physical existence, and is still present within. At that stage we are still in contact with the consciousness of ALL of “IT”, although in a particle (form/body) of “IT”. (There was no “I”, or “me”)

For purposes of this writing I won’t go into what is beyond what I’m going to describe as that is an individual experience, and just describe what I believe is possible for any human being. To some degree many are living in this state of consciousness but just aren’t aware of it.

What prompted me to take a look and try and describe this place was our discussion of spiritual experiences on the personal level. I’ve described my initial experience at another site, and therefore what I’m saying now is how it is now. Maybe it’ll resonate with some.

It’s been said somewhere about “returning home, and knowing it for the first time” (or something like that), and that’s how I felt initially.

To my thinking (conditioned mind) consciousness it seems to be a place of emptiness, nothingness, aloneness (lonely at times and that’s why you all have meant so much). All worldly compelling desires (thoughts) are gone, even the thought of “I”. It’s a place of truly just observing phenomenon and occupying a space in “IT” (particle). It’s a place where nothing really matters. (ha) It’s a place where every-thing is as it is, and every-one is right. It’s a state where “when hungry, eat; when tired, sleep”. Doing, without doing, applies. Trying to “be Somebody” has ended.

For me, if I didn’t know there was more to me than just what I experience these days I’d think I was psychotic, which would scare the hell out of me, because you do lose your mind---that conditioned set of thought-forms that I learned growing up and told me who and what I was.

What I’ve written is my best understanding of where I’m “at” most of the time. It’s very true that Ram Dass coming into my life when he did explained a lot about what had happened, and others have added to it in/from other schools of thought.

Jesus used the expression (words) “the Kingdom of Heaven is within” and continued to use words to describe how to live and be (coming from) that place in our humanness (incarnation).

It is the “gap” Dr. Chopra talks about between our worldly (physical) reality, and Reality, and is common to all physical existence. The “Namaste” of our individuality and the seat of our life force---“The” force, energy.

It’s Hanuman (Ramayana) saying “When I know who I am---we are One; when I don’t know who I am—I serve you”.

I’ve used the breath meditation practice these many years, and spiritual input (reading), to maintain that inner connection. Fulfilling what I perceive to be my Dharma these days it takes a lot of practice, and the breath method serves me well as when thought-forms arise they are easily recognized because they separate me from that place.

For instance, even the thought of “me” (I) experiencing this place has removed me one step from “IT”, one thought-form from it.

“That’s all folks!” Sorry for the long post.

Now, with that all said, I think it'll be long.

I've been working on describing my state of consciousness in relation to Consciousness ("IT"), and of course I've had to use words to try and grasp the "picture". Words that I've come to know that seem to carry the same "picture" to other minds, in linear fashion.

Not easy to do I grant you. It wouldn't be the first time people looked at me as crazy for what I've said, or even done.

In reviewing my life I've noticed that I was in that "place" during most of my childhood, and for a very short time after being discharged. (I'd gotten into Buddhist meditation the last two years of my enlistment). That "place" didn't fit into the life style I began living in Orange County CA during the early 60's.

The Forum seems to be relatively quiet this morning so if no one objects, I'll post what I've written about.

Please be reminded that it's all "IMO" and with my limited vocabulary----as TAUGHT BY ALL OF YOU!(ha)

Carol, I don't think you could improve much on the sentiments you expressed here, on the subject of your "blossoming" and its source:

On Friday, November 17, 2000, carol ()@38.37.124.118 said:

hi Cathy, thanks! i don't think your question was nosey but like Peggy's question, earlier, i have to put some thought in answering it. one of the things that i do take serious, tho, is keeping my house clean and orderly. but since my kids moved in and this expansion, i can just forget that, heh! poo! i hate it, too! hardly anything, makes me feel better that having everything in its place, all spanky clean. but i have had to lower my standards, greatly, or have a war every day with my loved ones. i guess this has sort helped me in my blossoming, too, lately, because i have had to exercise patience, acceptance, and i believe it may have humbled me a bit, heh!

To me, Carol, this says you understand that there's more to life than trying to control it. Letting go of that control thing is a big first step towards inner security. Terry just said the same thing in his words as I interpret them.

God, I love this "Consciousness" stuff!

I've noticed that the more in touch I am with myself, "know" my-Self, the less defensive I am.

It all pertains to "I know what I know", and it may be different than what "you" know----or the whole world knows (but that isn't the case BTW).

Welcome Brad! That's the kind of intro I like to "see" (yours). Shows where you'll be "coming from". Thanks.

Yes, Terry. I've been meaning to respond to Bob's kind words about that, too. It's not a big thing. Chess lessons to my grandson's third grade class, along with two other third grade classes. I got asked to help the other two after I volunteered for the one my grandson is in. They're sharp kids, and are grasping a fair percentage of what I'm trying to teach them. Mostly it's just how to write down their moves. They will need that when they start playing in tournaments. There's one of those scheduled for the Spring!

Brad, one other tidbit about the irony thing. I was hoping the smiley would let Chris know I was yanking his chain. :-) They're about as close as we can get, along with all the HTML tricks, to varying the emphasis on typed words in this place.

Namaste'

Dave I'm glad Pegasus let us know that you are helping out-----"out there".

Brad, I have another idea about the issue of irony. If you think there's irony or sarcasm or some other characteristic you're hoping will be implied in what you've written, then try this: read the post over to yourself -- aloud -- in a monotone with no inflection -- and see if that additional feature is there. If the tone of voice, volume, inflection, pace, or emphasis you would use in saying those same words to someone in "real" life happen to be absent, do the words themselves still carry the irony or sarcasm you meant for them to?

The same applies when reading other people's posts. Very often I catch myself on first reading "hearing" one message, that on second reading (or more) may dwindle down to a much simpler message, and one without the hostility or sarcasm or "attack" that may have appeared at the first pass.

It's a risky affair, and few of us have mastered the ability to communicate clearly and with precision. We all have our biases and agendas, our desires for what this forum will be when it's running smoothly and effectively, what we will learn from each other, and what we hope to share. (This use of "we" is meant as a personal opinion of what I believe "we" are all about -- even word choice has its hazards!) But, one thing's for sure in my case. I love trying to improve!

Brad, again I say welcome, and I'm happy that you have decided to "join in" the "fun" here. It's a shaky feeling at first to express yourself, to risk the responses you may get, to see how your own words are answered, and all that.

And it becomes a real challenge to see how well you have expressed what you think and feel. The nuances of this medium (typing onto the internet) can make something that would be a piece of cake in a face-to-face situation (or at least it would feel that way since you're more familiar with all the additional "signals" you get in face-to-face) to get across to another person or group, be a real exercise in patience to do here.

The irony you refer to is one of the most troubling features of trying to communicate here. There's no tone of voice, no facial expressions, no body language, no other real clues than the words themselves. It's a challenge that I have been harping on since I started "serious posting" years ago.

I hope you enjoy that challenge and that your aims for personal growth include the thing of saying what you want to say in ways that others not only understand but actually appreciate. This is a great place to try that. You have opinions and beliefs ranging all over the map. You have some people who are regulars here, and others who bounce in to say "Hi" and then never come back. I hope you'll aim at being a regular! We need more voices trying to communicate in this medium.

What sword? I didn't see a sword!

Carol, to your latest question of how to be friendly with two people who are at odds with each other, I have a few thoughts to share.

Number one, I think, is honesty. Honesty with yourself about how you really feel about each individual, and honesty with yourself about how you feel about what their differences are made of.

Number two is compassion and concern. If you use compassion and concern to express your honest feelings, you raise the chances that either of the ones you're wanting to remain friends with will see that honesty and compassion. If they are people who have similar desires to remain friendly with you, they will accept that. If not, then try to decide -- perhaps by dealing with them one-on-one -- what is preventing your friendship from continuing.

I believe it is possible to be true to yourself, honest with yourself, honest with others, and compassionate at the same time. It's not easy. That's another component, I believe. You have to be willing to sacrifice a little comfort for the sake of honesty and compassion.

Does this answer help any?

here i am again, this time with questions. how can one be friendly with two people that are at odds with each other, without getting into trouble with one or the other? is it important that one takes sides with each issue?

here is a quote for Bob, posted at Deepak's How To Know God site:

Those who achieve inner silence are also thinking in the ordinary way. But the thought takes place against a background of nonthought. The mind is full of a kind of knowing that could speak to us about everything, yet it has no words; therefore, we seek this knowingness in the background.

hi Peggy, i promised some more on the blossoming question but find i would have to write a book of my entire life to bring myself to now, in order to answer your question. it has been so long since you asked you have probably lost interest in it anyway, right?

on the ME changeover question, it didn't matter which it was to me i planned to celebrate both! :) having been a person that celebrates her birthday for a month and also considers it Christmas everyday, i was just glad to hear that there will be two celebrations, heh! i know that isn't very scientific or funny :( but its just the way it is for me.

Hi Brad!! Welcome!! :)

since the aura thingie keeps popping up, let me say this on a couple of questions/comments that i have noticed. first i have hallucinated and it was REAL but i knew it wasn't. and second i am not doing drugs per se except for the reg ones like coffee or tea (and i drink both of them weak) and of course the occasional dose of second-hand cig smoke that i breathe trying to wade pass the smokers to get into the mall. and lets not forget all the stuff they are spraying on our food and oh yes, in the atmosphere i breathe, especially, on the nights the mosquito spayer comes by here? not that this holds much value for you, just thought i would throw it in, here.

but, really, i had an experience, yesterday, (lets call it experience and not aura, ok? it seems more acceptable) a clerk that normally serves me at the local movie rental house had a *dark aura/look about her. now of course that could be many things, but for some reason, i was instantly concerned when i saw her. i will observe her the next few times i see her and see if this changes and i will get back to you with my observations. that is about as scientific as i can get with this.

*i wish i could describe this dark look better to you. it is extremely difficult to put into words but i actually feel everyone is capable of this and wonder if you ever ask yourself what you mean when you say to another person, that you don't look like you feel well today? or your color is good, etc? can you actually say that this has never happened to you? i have heard this and statements like it over my entire life. well, for me, it extends a little beyond just seeing the darkness under eyes or the red cheeks, that's all. not so complex or mysterious to me since i feel everyone is doing/seeing these things just in different ways.

i'm beginning to really, really, like this new non-serious way of posting, heh!!

and Chris, you made your point and it was great and funny, haha!!!!

The cat woke me up at 5 a.m. today, so I've used some of my gift of extra hours to do some surfing. (The cat, of course, is happily playing with a pistachio nut and unconcerned about her human's gritchy eyes.) Anyway, I haven't found anything that directly addresses the connection between brain chemicals and hallucinations, mainly because I haven't the patience to look further and would rather go to the medical library. Maybe I'll do that over the holidays since it has a pretty good supply of articles and I'm more easy with print on paper. I do find that there is plenty of research on neurotransmitters, however, and how their functions or malfunctions can affect us.

Just my own view: my brain is an organ affected by chemicals just as my kidneys, liver, et al, are, except it, the brain, also controls the flow of many of those chemicals. I just try to be attuned to both body and brain, and usually feel (figuratively?) when something unusual is happening. For instance, my system seems to be very sensitive when it comes to using any drugs, including antibiotics, and I have to attempt to gauge when I need something to fight a virus or whatever. My doc is very good about working with me on this since she tends toward the holistic and treats a patient, not just a body part. :-)

If you want to find some research that has taken place in the last 30-50 years, here is one place. I only selected it because it had good footnotes to further information: http://depression.about.com/health/depression/library/weekly/aa051500.htm

This is a subject that fascinates me. But right now it's time for my oatmeal.

If anyone understood my previous message would they please explain it to me. I'll be your best friend for life.

Apologies seem to be in order again. Peggy, it looks like I skipped over your most interesting (recent) question which touches on some fundamental questions about the nature of reality & experience & the senses. You asked if I had ever had a similar experience to the one you described with the crow. Well, I must be one of the few people ever diagnosed with schizophrenia who hasn't experienced a hallucination. I feel somewhat cheated. :)

Anyway, your question does raise (in my mind anyways) some fascinating issues. Actually, before I get to them, I have been watching The Matrix again and one of the memorable scenes is where one of the characters asks, "What is real? How do you define real? If real is what you can see, what you can touch, what you can smell and hear then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain."

The whole question of hallucinations and 'chemical imbalances' has intrigued me ever since a psychiatrist first tried to sell me the notion. I never really bought it. :) The conventional psychiatric 'wisdom' is that the hallucinations and delusions and disordered thinking associated with schizophrenia is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. You'd expect such a claim to be suported by some hard evidence. I am unaware of such evidence if it exists. I mean has any doctor ever examined the chemical balance of a human brain while it is functioning 'normally' and then compared the results with the brain of somebody expriencing a hallucination. I doubt if it's even possible. The most complex and mysterious region of the physical universe is the grey matter that rests inside our skulls. It rests more peacefully in some skulls than in others. :)

Even if one accepts the 'chemical imbalance' theory (and that's all it is) it's not much of an explanation in my book. The obvious follow-up question is to ask what caused the imbalance. One of my pet analogies is to compare it with a cancer patient in extreme pain. A doctor can administer morphine to 'take away' the pain but nobody is suggesting that the source of the experience of pain is merely a chemical imbalance in the brain. The morphine hasn't removed the source of the pain, merely the awareness of it. The cancer is the actual source of the pain and left untreated the pain will return. This leaves aside the whole question of what caused the cancer ...

If we define a hallucination as 'seeing something which isn't there', this raises the question of how do we establish what is or is not 'there'. Which brings us right back to the Matrix quote. Usually we do rely on consensus. If only one person in a room sees something then they are likely to dismiss it as their eyes 'playing tricks' on them. There are many schools of thought that declare the entire realm of physical 'reality' to be a kind of sophisticated mass hallucination as we discussed a few weeks back - comparing it with a movie that our spirits are watching.

I hate to labour the point about 'proof' but with regards auras that would have to remain forever an open question in your mind as nobody could ever prove beyond doubt what they are seeing through their eyes. Many believe that seeing auras, astral travel, telepathy etc. are perfectly 'natural' human capabilities but they need to be developed and practiced. For the sake of argument, consider the pilot of a jumbo jet. He wasn't born knowing how to fly a jet and if he never took lessons he'd be quite unlikely to be able to successfully fly one. Only a relatively tiny percentage of the population have developed this ability to fly a jumbo. If you took a person from the time of Christ and time-transported to the present day ... well, firstly they would be astonished that there even are such things as planes but if you said a human being can fly one of them he'd probably question your sanity as it was not part of his everyday experience. This analogy needs some major repairs but I trust you catch my drift.

Okay, we don't normally see our senses in this light. We see them as basically operating on automatic pilot if you'll excuse the terrible pun. :) And maybe in 99.99% of people they do operate this way at this point in human history. At the end of the day, I suppose the issue of seeing or not seeing auras is not really of paramount importance anyway. I'm far more interested in ways of cultivating compassion, kindness, gratitude, wonder & forgiveness.

Would you be more likely to believe that auras are 'real' if MOST people claimed to see them rather than a FEW people even if you yourself never saw auras? Is a claim somehow more believable when made by the majority of the population? Most people would say so. Likewise, with our addiction to linear thinking, most people would deduce that if I swallowed some lovely blue pills for the first time two hours ago with my coffee and now I'm seeing blood and tears seeping from one of my garden gnomes as it strolls amongst the rose bushes then there is most likely a causal link between the two events. My Mum always said too much coffe isn't good for the nerves. :)

I seemed to have meandered a bit but that's okay there are no rules in this place. :) Oh yes, the major piece of 'evidence' for psychiatrists to believe that the experiences of schizophrenia are due to a 'chemical imbalance' would seem to be the anti-psychotic drugs that have been developed in the past 50 years or so. People who take these medications often report their hallucinations disappear - but not in every case which is verrrry interesting. But that brings us back to my morphine analogy and tracing the causal link back to its actual source. Is everyone following this? If not, don't worry. All will be revealed in the fullness of time. Another analogy about 'chemical imbalance' is to consider someone experiencing the fright of their life and the adrenalin races through their bloodstream. Nobody would suggest this excess of adrenalin in the blood is what caused the experience of fright. It's the other way around.

This whole question reminds me of a scene from a movie where the psychiatrist proclaims that one of his patients only believes he is talking to God because the dopamine receptors in his brain are malfunctioning. One of his friends replies by saying that maybe when God wishes to talk to somebody that is how he does it. :) The psychiatirst then says that God is just a concept of man and his friend whimsically suggests that many people see man as a concept of God.

Yes, we do make certain assumptions about our senses. We tend to assume they function in a more or less identical manner in all humans unless there is some damage to the sensory organ. With sight, we tend to assume that if we see something with our eyes then the object exists in some physical form and is thus 'real'. We tend to believe that if only a minority of people see something that they are probably hallucinating or partaking of mind-altering substances. Our eyes are actually extremely limited in that they only detect wavelengths of light that are part of the visible spectrum. There is a vast spectrum of wavelengths that our eyes do not normally 'see'. That alone tells us that there is a LOT more to reality than what meets the eye. Not quite sure where I'm headed with all this. It's rather a fuzzy and expansive answer to one little question. But I do feel the general public needs to hear this. :)

In short, no I have never experienced an actual hallucination but there was that one time aboard the alien mothership where I thought I saw a pink dinosaur wearing a dinner suit and singing Waltzing Matilda but it had been a long day visiting other galaxies and speaking with various microscopic entities so maybe my eyes were just playing tricks on me. It's hard to be sure. :)

(Editor's Note: Geoff is probably right about the dinosaur in the dinner suit being an hallucination. Everyone knows pink dinosaurs invariably wear wetsuits whenever they travel on intergalactic missions. Blue dinosaurs on the other hand are an entirely different kettle of fish.)

***********

Speaking as we have been about cells and memories, I found this link the other day -

Yes, cells do remember

G'day Richard.

Feel free to sue me. I haven't checked my bank balance lately but there should be enough to get you a large pizza and a bottle of Pepsi at least.

You're right about 'miracles' - there are only two ways to live: as if everything is a miracle or as if nothing is. And having dwelt at each end of the spectrum within one lifetime, I know which I prefer. :)

Namaste

DaveR, I'm often critical of people’s inability to understand irony. After my message I read yours again and had a sudden fear that I was about to fall on my sword. I think I did and I apologise. They say that's good for the soul but... I actually found the Odometer gag quite funny. Thanks for the welcomes; I'm surprise by how good they feel.

Face your shadow Debbie!

Brad my point exactly! :-)

Bob, I think we know each other.

NOW is the only moment. You must put into practice here the things that you learned at the seminar. That place is special and real. So are you. So are the other people who post here. They too have tender spirits. Go within and manifest the peace.

No one said it would be easy. You are coming from a place of pain. Release! Renew your spirit and maintain. Don't forget to breathe.

We love you, namaste, D.

Geoff, you will be hearing from my attorney's, once they're done in Florida. Those shameless and probably premeditated "typos", have wounded maybe permanently crippled, my inner child, myself, and possibly ,No Probably, this innocent and elderly computer of mine. Remember, "keyboards don't kill, typos do". The absolute affrontery.

On "Spontaneous Remissions" (the skeptics word for miracles)--So, in '94 I absolutely freak out. There is a growth in my groin, between a pigeon egg and golf ball in size. I absolutely, avoid & fear Doctors. But in this case I zoom down to the V.A Hospital. They examine it and schedule me for surgery, in two weeks. I arrive, they look at it, it's not there. They write, "no disease process present" and that's that, everybody is real happy. With in a year I am informed that I have come up positive for Hepatitus C. I ask them where does that lead, not good. Treatment, maybe interferon, prognosis still not particularly good. So I told them, I would just go about my business and hope for the best. Before this news, I had been told that my liver was all scarred up from black water fever (falciparum malaria) which miraculously survived. And years of alcoholism and stange white powders--which I miraculously survived. They had taken a biopsy (OWW!!), for this information.

Well in the course of Compensation and Pension examinations. They were going to examine my liver to see the extent of damage, using an MRI. Low and Behold "NO DISEASE PRESENT/NO SCARRING". Healthiest it's been since I was 20 y/o.

That's a miracle--I've also survived countless other events that should have been lethal. Survived my own folly, etc

April, of '96. An Angel took me from my room, while I was watching rainbows. The being, took me on a ride into the sky and zooming around the clouds with speeds and turns that would make the air force jealous.

So I would have to say, I know what know. And the more I am open and looking for miracles and wonder around me, the more I see and experience.

Love and Light and Auras and Flying and whatever works.

P.S. The pharmaceutical corporations would do well to produce therapies as good as "placebos"--low cost, no side effects, no drug interactions, no accidental overdosing, etc.

Namaste'

I agree with you and Brad, Cathy. And I think Chris was pulling our legs with his version. The answers were just too funny for me to take him seriously. My response to him was in jest as well.

Geoff

I just began reading Philosophy for Dummies---it called to me ;-) and I've just started, but this quote came up that I found funny in lieu of recent discussion here : "In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." Michael Apostolius

Dave, I'm with Brad, that the new millenium is Jan 1st 2001--and also in that it doesn't matter to me in that it's an arbitrary date anyway, what with calendar changes etc...I think the change over from 1999 to 2000 was more visually exciting--thus all the media hoopla last year. While it's not important to me, I did enjoy the festivities etc that went on then :-)

Welcome, Brad!

Cathy

Welcome, Brad! Great to hear a new voice!

I tried to resist. Chris V, anyone who sits around waiting for the Media to tell them when to change their calendar deserves to miss the 'so called' new millennium. This event will occur on the 1st Jan 2001. I don't see the need to justify that assertion. However, the whole issue is a social construct. It happens because we say it does. It shapes our reality because we allow it too. We need the structure of measurement. What a privilege for something so artificial and banal to take up our interest. I wonder if the people who live in garbage dumps spend their days planning their new years eve parties. The 'new millennium' will arrive with no interest from me. D2 I'm with you on the foreign policy stuff but levitation is outside my experience. Look you people have been at this forum for some time and if you feel the need to reply to me great but I’m happy to read your stories for a while first. I am very interested in personal growth so I don't feel the need to do the above any more. A more enlightened being would have been happy to let it go. I'm not there yet. I warn you all. I look for the practical in most things and believe that most 'miracles' occur in our brains i.e. the flying saucer was not in the sky but in the mind. Make sense? Brad.

thanks, Chris, that's the best explanation i've heard.

Chris, very scientific explanation on the Millennium thing! Thanks. :-)

Dave I think the millennium started on January 1, 2000 for the following reasons:

1) When I watch my speedometer/odometer in my car turn to 10,000 miles I go "wooo hooo!" I don't when it turns to 10,001 unless I happen to see a pretty girl on the side of the road at the same time.
2) I haven't heard any media hoopla about January 1, 2001. Since a millennium change should be a very remarkable thing in human history, if 2001 was the millennium change I'd expect there would be a bunch of media hoopla. I haven't seen any hoopla, therefore it must not be the millennium change.
3) If our calendar was indeed started on the birth of Jesus, then it is widely accepted to be way off anyway. Heck, even December 25th was borrowed from the Roman mid-winter holiday. Jesus was more likely born in the Spring I think. Nobody followed the calendar until it was several hundred years AD anyway.
4) The argument that there was no year zero doesn't hold much water in my book since there was no year 1 either. Or 2 or 3 or 33 or even 100!

There you have it!

Bob, are you trouble making? ;)

actually, Geoff, most of the Masters felt that most of the powers, so to be speak, was Spiritual Rubbish, from all that i understand, in my readings. as you say the true power is in transforming/opening the heart to all the wonders of being human/Spiritual and to this miraculous existence.

Carol - Got your instructions straight? :)

Geoff - That was an American yoke! You are one of the lightest and brightest here! :)

Have a good weekend all !!!!

Namaste'

You took the words right out of my mouth, Chris. I was intending to post as part of last nights ramblings something along the lines that in the final analysis seeing auras or levitating or reading minds are not terribly important except possibly as indicators that each of us is vastly more than we ordinarily allow ourselves to believe we are.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Buddha urged his disciples NOT to perform 'miraculous' or 'superhuman' feats lightly as the greatest miracle is the transformation of the human heart and this is a 'magic trick' each of us can perform (eventually). :)

Someone may have a better recollection of what Buddha actually said. I'm paraphrasing.

Bob If I were any 'lighter' I'd float away ... :)

Just a thought on 'spontaneous remissions' - who's to say the 'mechanism' isn't the prayers of friends, relatives or strangers even if the person experiencing the remission isn't into prayer at all. :)

Furthermore, describing a mechanism isn't much of an 'explanation' to me anyway. The deep mystery is what's behind the mechanism, what's driving it. Just like the 'laws' of 'nature' - how did the laws get there ...

Does anyone know where I can get some good quality duck feathers?

How many of you think the Millennium started on January 1, 2000?

How many think it won't start until January 1, 2001?

How many don't even care?

If you care to explain why you think that way, please do. But at least express your own persuasion, if you will.

Thanks

Thanks, Carol and Cathy! I tend to get wound up trying to express myself. Your brief replies are so much easier to understand!

sounds good to me, Dave!

Dave

Thanks for your efforts :-) I don't think Dick and I were that far apart either...and, as I've said repeatedly, I am in fact a very rational person still--I don't believe whatever I read. However, and I think this is the difference between Dick and myself, I don't disbelieve it either :-)I suspend judgment, consider the possibilities and await the time when I know more...

Chris

I enjoyed your post--you know the part you said about the family not needing to prove anything to anyone--and Carol has mentioned the same thing...and someone long ago mentioned (or this might have been on a different list) that Jesus didn't "flaunt" his healing abilities etc...I think perhaps this is a key point? Kinda goes along with the "Those who know, don't speak" idea that was recently expressed--though this is not always true, of course :-) I guess what I'm saying is that spiritual knowledge and experience, as opposed to other sorts of knowledge and experience, is completely an individual journey, much like love. We can outwardly display a certain extent (like healings etc..of Jesus), but the bulk of it is an internal thing. Sharing it, as you described, Chris, is a wonderful thing I think. On the other hand, prosetilyzing usually has the opposite effect...it can all get convoluted, this Life :-) What to believe, whom to believe, dreams, reality, how do we know, where's the proof? It seems to me, that Life's bigger questions cannot be proven simply--else we'd all be enlightened by now. Of necessity, it is an inward journey, to be taken by each of us...and while we must remain open to change and growth, we must also be steadfast in the things we do know--which is a fine line to walk, I guess :-) How to discern if we are being committed to truth or deluding ourselves? No one can decide this for us, try though they might ;-)

D2 How cool about the levitating! I am in the "I believe it intellectually, but do not know it as fact" area on this :-) Even though I have no reason to think you would deceive me, and I believe that "impossible" things can happen--I lack firsthand experience and on such things, to really know, I think I'd have to be there, ya know what I mean? No offense intended--please do not take any :-)

Gotta go see the Grinch movie with the kids ;-)

Cathy

Carol, thanks for the reply to my concerns. I respect the fact that each of us is probably coming back to this forum for individual reasons and to fulfill individual goals. As long as we can respect each other's rights to participate in whatever way is meaningful to the individuals involved, things are "as they should be" as I see it.

In addition to giving positive feedback when things are going to suit us, I think we owe each other the negative feedback when things aren't going to suit us. Those types of feedback can be presented as matters of individual opinion, without excessive heat in the wording, and without intent to hurt or to "butter up." But the statement of those things that bother us about other people's words and methods don't have to be ignored or suppressed either. It's healthy, in my view, to be willing to share our feelings about each other -- positive and negative.

You, Carol, have demonstrated as well as anyone here, and better than many, how to do just that sort of thing. Your soft-spoken assertions are great examples for others to look to for ways to say the negative things without causing pain and the positive things without "taking sides."

As much as I see it your right to post whatever gives you pleasure, I hope you will continue to see it as my right to question the value of quotations that don't fit in with conversations in progress. Quotes for their own sake, especially when inserted into debates and discussions, often achieve the exact opposite effect from what may have been intended. If the quote is relevant then by all means add it in. But if the majority of posts are on a specific topic or issue, and much energy is going into trying to resolve some point, an irrelevant quote is nothing more than an annoyance to the participants and is likely to break the stream of thought. When that sort of quote is dropped in (just like the cartoons and graphics and jokes and song lyrics) it is a none-too-subtle way of saying to the people engaged in the discussion "you're not talking about what I want to talk about" or "shut up" or something similar. If that is the intent of the inserted "mood breaker" it would be more effective (in my opinion) to say something like "hey, can we change the subject? I'd like to talk about this-and-that."

These are obviously my own preferences, but they do help to explain a little more about my reactions to the irrelevant posts. In summary, I respect your right to post whatever you want, as long as you respect my right to say "I don't like that."

thanks, Bob, but those contractors better not slow down or your ass is grass,heh! ;)

hi Cathy, thanks! i don't think your question was nosey but like Peggy's question, earlier, i have to put some thought in answering it. one of the things that i do take serious, tho, is keeping my house clean and orderly. but since my kids moved in and this expansion, i can just forget that, heh! poo! i hate it, too! hardly anything, makes me feel better that having everything in its place, all spanky clean. but i have had to lower my standards, greatly, or have a war every day with my loved ones. i guess this has sort helped me in my blossoming, too, lately, because i have had to exercise patience, acceptance, and i believe it may have humbled me a bit, heh!

WOWSERS! D2, what a revelation! care to share some more about the experience?

Dear, Dave, i never thought that for one minute. i don't believe everything i read, either. ;) and i do acknowledge that you have repeatedly said that you would rather hear my own words. but, i do want you to know, that in spite of what others thought about me posting the quotes, they have been a very important part of my participation, here, to me. i don't want you to think i don't value others opinions, i do, but i basically come here for my own pleasure. it IS wonderful, tho, when others are finding my participation, pleasureable, too. :)

What a great conversation that is going on here lately. I'd like to add a few personal experiences to the "miracles" or "spontaneous healing" debate. In high school, my next door neighbors daughter was diagnosed with severe scoliosis (curvature of the spine). She was going to have to be in a back brace or have major surgery to correct this problem. Her family is very religious and are the type of Christians that truly behave like Christians. Anyway, the family prayed, and her whole church prayed for her to be healed. I don't recall the exact time frame (a few weeks perhaps), but in very little time her spine was perfectly straight and didn't need a brace or surgery. She is totally fine even now almost 20 years later. When talking to her or her family about this there is no doubt in their minds how this happened. They are living in the light of the results. It is very personal for them and there is no need to prove anything to anyone about it.

As a graduate student in psychology I took a class on chronic pain. I did a report on the power of the placebo effect. This effect is very well known in medical research and must be controlled for when doing research. It is interesting that this very powerful effect is almost completely discarded by most of the western medical establishment when it is often more powerful than the pharmacological effects of the drugs they are using. However it works, anyone who has done medical research must admit that it is an extremely powerful effect. The fact that it is controlled for, and assumed to be "unreal" in the medical establishment is nuts in my opinion.

"Argue for your limitations and sure enough they are yours." -- Richard Bach Illusions

Seeing auras and levitation don't really interest me that much. If someone claims that they can do this, like Geoff said, who am I to say otherwise since I can't view the world through their eyes. Why is it important to me to prove to them that they are wrong? What does interest me is the personal transformation that people can achieve. I get a lot out of helping people realize the possibilities that they possess. I'm on a journey of realizing mine, and like an alcoholic in recovery I get strength in helping others overcome the same obstacles that I am trying to overcome. It starts from a place of acceptance of what is. Perhaps that is what Love really is. When we can authentically accept another person for exactly who they are then that is love. When we can expand this acceptance to the world then we've really got it. The power that we have access to by simply accepting things as they are is amazing! I'm exploring many possibilities in my life now that I never thought I would simply because I have accepted myself (in this moment at least) and created a possibility for myself from this place of power.

I hope everyone has a phenomenal day!

Denis, satisfied? Nope.

Carol, to whatever degree you may see that Pooka's comments about some of us "ingratiating themselves" to you before "having you for breakfast" have relevance to what I have said to you yesterday, I hope you will acknowledge that in spite of my vocal criticism for your penchant for posting quotes (especially the quotes that don't seem to be "on topic") in the past that I have been consistent in saying that your own words about your own feelings and ideas are what matter most to me. And, I hope you can be comforted with the idea that I'm seeing your ways of participating these days as being significantly different from the ways you participated in the past.

I can understand your skepticism that I might be "playing you" in light of some of my "attacks" in the past. But, as much as you yourself seem to have changed to a more involved participant in the topics and issues, and even the personalities here, I have myself changed some in how I'm responding to you.

Things do change, including our outlooks. And I want you to know, Carol, that this is not a game I'm playing with you. Others may have reasons to doubt my sincerity. I just hope you don't.

Dear DaveR, When you believe it you will see it...

Since my now wife was the volunteer in charge of the levitating room, she and her partner (as confirmed by the independent accounting firm of Dewey, Cheatum and Howe) testified in sworn depositions before the Palm Beach County Florida Elections Board (as affirmed by the Florida Secretary of State even though we were in California) that the man listed above did indeed levitate, along with David and several others.

Cathy and Dick, may I try to straddle this fence between your points of view, with the hope of trying to translate what I see as the main difference between your points of view?

As one who doesn't like to "accept" as factual those things that are not backed up by some logical explanation, I can see Dick's point that until there are scientific explanations for some of the "miracles" then those "miracles" have to be treated as hearsay and, as such, improbable to have occurred in the way hearsay has presented them. In short, there have to be "better" explanations than myths and folklore.

As one who doesn't feel than any "group" has a lock on the truth, with "groups" including science, religion, New Age mysticism, academia, the media, the prevailing political party, and any other "group" you can name -- including Skeptics, I can see Cathy's point that just because we can't explain things in precise terms, and just because we haven't located that precise process that will allow a "scientific explanation" to be given for many of those anomalies that are lumped into the general categories of "paranormal" or "supernatural," it doesn't mean that we should ignore or downplay those phenomena as unworthy of attention.

What this boils down to, Bob and others with curiosity about my own motives for participating here, is that I temper my general skepticism with a smattering of hope that we can find some truth in those areas that fall into the "weird and unexplained" category by giving less prejudice and more curiosity to what's going on there.

At bottom, I would hope some of these things like auras and levitation and x-ray vision and flying could be shown to be "real" and not just scams. But I withhold buying into them just because there's something in print about them, or that "a friend of a friend" knows about. There needs to be some give-and-take from both sides of this fence if the "truth" has any real chance to appear. Both sides are a little too convinced their answer is the only one possible.

Label me however you interpret these remarks. It is irrelevant to me what label you assign, as long as you deal with me as an individual and not as some "member of a group." The "group" I relate to is "human being."

I hope this has helped Cathy and Dick both to see the other's point of view better. If that has failed, at least I see that the differences between you are not all that great.

Namaste'

Can't remember which anonymous poster referred to "me", but thanks for the attention, and compliment.

Geoff

I had missed your add ons about the typos--very funny ;-) I thoroughly enjoy your posts and find the thinking process you share refreshing. I'm sure this matters deeply to you :-)

Carol--I am also glad to see many posts from you :-) BTW, I do not mind the quotes that you post--I personally love "meaningful"(a subjective thing) quotes and therefore enjoy new ones (like Dick's Goethe one ;-)) But I also enjoy your "own" words...I will go along with the idea (?Dave's?) that putting the wisdom from masters into your own words might mean that you've assimilated it more--but the original words are also still meaningful to me. What things do you still take seriously, if that's not too nosey? :-)

Bye again!

Cathy

Good morning!

Dick--okay, last try for me :-) In the example I gave, there was no claim about this man's tumors coming and going because of prayer or any sort of alternative treatment. What impresses me is that the body can make such unusual changes...now I recognize that there are many "quacks" out there. But I also am open to "other" treatments because I believe we are more than our bodies and that "treatment" based on things other than the workings of the body can help or even cure.

It is good to read that research is being done about these things--hope what I'm reading is true! ;-) I admitted that I didn't know the details of research--I guess I based my opinion on my knowledge of how the doctors I knew looked at such things and on the education my husband received and how it taught nothing about such things (aside from a brief mention that such things happened)...anyway, I'm bowing out of this discussion now, thanks!

Bob and Carol--thanks for your support (remember that wine commercial? :-)) I think I've finally gotten the hang of not getting too wrapped up in these cyberspace exchanges when I'm involved in a "disagreement" or when people call me ignorant. Now, if I can bring this equanimity into my "live" life...;-)

Good day!

Cathy

Carol - Please keep taking up space - don't take this wrong but may your contractors be a slow as normal. Also, I too am getting a little tired of the anonomous posters - they are operating from a pretty low level even though I do see some humor at times.

Cathy - Don't take them seriously, we still love you.

Geoff - Lighten Up :)

Namaste'

yeah, me too, Geoff! aint it awful? ;) i still have things i'm serious about, tho. maybe, i can evolve to your state of awareness, soon, tho, if my kids keep living with me, heh?

Hi Carol

Thanks for the vote of confidence. It was tongue in cheek. I'm actually finding it very hard to be serious right now. I'm really worried about that. I may have lost the ability forever. :)

just in case you-all are wondering why i have been here so much, lately, heh! i am in the midst of enclosing my garage and the house is a wreck, with stuff piled everywhere. it is called limbo!!!! so where better to spend limbo than in cyber-space? i hope the bedroom and bath that my garage is going to become will be done soon!! in the mean time, i hope you won't mind too much, if i take up some space here?

wonderful post, Geoff, and i don't find your posts hard to understand at all. oops! well, forgive me if i am responding to tongue in cheek, heh! no kidding, your post is eloquent and i agree with allowing Deepak a certain degree of poetic license. i do believe that in this particular book, tho, he gives credit to the studies and also in the back there are references to where he got some of the material.

There is one more minor typo - in the part where I said 'all skeptics should be tickled with an ostrich feather until they agree with me', I meant to say that they should be tickled with a duck feather. It's a mistake anyone could make. Apologies once again. I will now go stand in the corner of the room. :)

Other typos are:

'live once' rather than 'live one'

'three-dimensional real' should read 'three-dimensional reality'

I apologise most sincerely once again. I mean my messages are hard enough to understand even when the spelling is correct. :)

Many typos in the previous message. :)

Where I say "allow him a certain degree of poetic licence" - I meant to put an 'I' in there somewhere so it would say:
'I allow him a certain degree of poetic licence"

Apologies for any lives that were irrepairably damaged by this careless error on my part. It will never happen again as long as I am president.

Finally catching up with some of the recent posts. Dick, I didn't realise we were on a such a tight deadline here. :) You say Peggy's questions went 'unanswered' ... I haven't even logged on to read them let alone answer them just yet. My ESP is a bit down lately. :)

Peggy, you ask 'what would constitute disproof to a non-skeptic'. Well, personally, I regard it as practically impossible to absolutely disprove anything. The basic thrust of the discussion leading up to that idea of 'proof' was about people claiming to see auras. I personally have never seen an aura so when somebody claims they do see them I am interested in the subject but as for proving or disproving what their eyes can see ... that's pretty much impossible either way. I can't see the world through their eyes - well not at this stage anyway. :)

If we're talking about proof or disproof in general, again it depends on the specific claim a person is making. If Joe Bloggs claims he can fly like a bird at will, this would be an easy thing to verify. :) If he claims he can only do it when nobody is watching ... he could still be telling the truth but most peeple would be a tad suspicious ...

I'm wandering all over the place but it's late at night and I've had a hard day and none of this really makes any difference either way I suppose ...

As for deepak's DNA claim - I read that quite differently. I read it as more a piece of poetry than a scientific claim. So allow him a certain degree of poetic licence. If he said there is hard scientific evidence for his staement then you'd be justified in being curious as to what exctly the hard evidence consists of ...

And his claim MAY be spot on. DNA does contain a whole lot of information. I absolutely marvel at the fact that a single fertilised cell 'knows' how to split and divide and eventually grow into a full-grown (physically anyway) human being with billions of cells making bones, blood, liver, stomach, heart, brain, enzymes, fingernails, etc etc ... and it remains a profound mystery as to how that single cell actually does it. You can say the information is all in the DNA and the genes but how exactly that information gets translated into what the cell does is a deep deep mystery. Sorry to get all cosmic again ... I suppose my point is the information is in there and who's to say what other information is in there and how it might be accessed. Take your own memories for example. Where are they stored? You have spent thousands of days and millions of moments in this three-dimensional real and each of those moments is in theory stored somewhere in what we call 'memory' but the only reality you can be aware of is the current moment. Where are all the other moments? More mind boggling stuff to contemplate ... :)

Getting back to the word 'weird' ... supposing you lived in a society where 99.999 % of people fully accepted astral travel and aliens and ESP and ghosts and guardian angels and life after death as part of their 'reality'. If someone went around claiming that humans are merely physical beings and live one and then perish utterly from existence, such an individual would be regarded as quite 'weird'. That's what I was driving at by saying the use of the word weird is an entirely relative and subjective thing.

Pleasant dreams, one and all.

good morning.....

i didn't quite understand that interchange, Peggy, but somehow it got me an invitation to breakfast. :) i love oatmeal, heh!

i am thinking about the blossoming question and it sort of opened a can of worms, for me. my first reaction was, maybe it had something to do with all those quotes i posted for years, but got a LOL from myself for that. i am giving it some thought, tho, and i will respond, here or in e-mail.

hi Cathy, i don't like the technique that many of the anon posters use, here, either. i felt the remark to you, yesterday, was very unkind and many of the posts to Bob (anonymously posted) are contentious. the posts with a name on it, i feel are direct, but from honest query and acceptable. we are all looking for answers and want that answer to come from love. i have to admit, that some of the anon posters are very talented and i enjoy the humor, even if it is a joke on me.

but, overall i question the anon posters motives and ask, why the mask is necessary? is it a way to get your point across and then to be able to act friendly when you don't have the mask on? if that is the case then you need serious help, imo.

personally, i don't spend much time speculating about this but when someone makes a comment or asks a question, it does bring this query to mind. nevertheless, there is a human behind the anon post and i try to keep that in mind, especially, if it is a human in serious trouble.

Spontaneous Remission

Any anecdotally reported cure could have been due to a rare but possible "spontaneous remission." Even with certain cancers that are nearly always lethal, tumors occasionally disappear without further treatment. One experienced oncologist reports that he has seen 12 such events in about 6000 cases he has treated.[66] Alternative therapists can receive unearned acclaim for such remissions because many desperate patients turn to them out of a feeling that they have nothing left to lose. When the "alternatives" assert that they have snatched many hopeless individuals from death's door, they rarely reveal what percentage of their apparently terminal clientele such happy exceptions represent. What is needed is statistical evidence that their "cure rates" exceed the known spontaneous remission rate and the placebo response rate (see below) for the conditions they treat.

The exact mechanisms responsible for spontaneous remissions are not well understood at present, but much research is being devoted to revealing and possibly harnessing processes in the immune system or elsewhere that are responsible for these unexpected turnarounds. Some researchers think that spontaneous remissions are less the result of immune surveillance than the fact that certain biochemical reactions necessary for growth in malignant masses can, on occasion, reach a self-limiting stage before the accumulated tumor mass kills the patient. Whatever the mechanism, the documented existence of spontaneous remissions in a variety of diseases, in people who do not avail themselves of alternative treatments, means that an occasional dramatic, unexpected turnaround cannot be used to validate the power of prayer or a fringe therapy.

above excerpt from Why Inert Treatments Seem to Work
(complete with 99 references!)

"Nothing is more dangerous than active ignorance."
~ Goethe

Carol

I don't remember or (wasn't around?) when your experiences were being questioned...but I am glad that it helped you :-) And not surprised :-)

Dick

Think what you will about my level of ignorance :-)...I am a registered nurse and my husband is a medical doctor (and we both have current liscences ;-)) and I know how the medical community in general reacts to "miracle" cures--and I'm not talking about cures from medical treatment--which are equally wonderous to be sure...I believe that cancer research (and I could be wrong) is primarily about medical and/or nutritional treatment, though there is some mainstream movement into the mind/body connection...Deepak and Bernie Seigel both tell the story of a man who had tumors coming and going in impossible time based on his thoughts about the effectiveness of a cancer drug he was to receive--when he thought it was a miracle drug, his tumors disappeared. When he discovered it was not so great, his tumors returned. When his doctor told him there was an improved version and treated him with saline, his tumors disappeared again. Then when he read that it was definitively not a good drug and FDA was pulling it (or some such) his tumors returned and he died. I am not saying that the explanation of this is non-scientific, but that the science behind it is beyond our current understanding--just as the miracles of sages etc..probably will one day have an explanation. For me, personally, I don't really have to understand the how...just the fact that things like this can happen is enough to make me think and consider "impossibilities."

Bob

I have this thing about people being "attacked"--unless I am attacking and therefore may be temporarily blind ;-)I respect everyone's right to say what they will, but don't like it when I feel like people aren't being "fair"--whatever that might be (and before anyone says anything, yes, I realize that Bob has done his share of "attacking." I try to let go of past behaviors of people--myself included--to allow them freedom to be differently than they have been--not always succesfully, of course :-))...I am not yet to the point of nonjudgment, and still have opinions :-) Though I wonder, if nonjudgment has to mean not having opinions about things as much as it means not binding the people to those same actions--loving everyone while possibly not liking things they do? And perhaps understanding that ultimately, our not liking or liking certain actions isn't the key, as we tend to think most of the time?

Good night all!

Cathy

Pooka, I came back to thank you for your post. Nobody has ever accused me of being too nice before...

Bob had rather talk about serious stuff like skiing and the stockmarket and the Marines. No chitchat allowed. So how have you been since the takeover? Don't you have enough mischief where you are?

Pook, is that you? WHOOP!!!

Carol, you are welcome for breakfast but as Kate will attest to, you get only instant oatmeal. :-)

Much ado about nothing.

Pooka, no assumptions in that post. I was referring to those times when Deepak says, "Studies show that _____________(fill in the blank) but doesn't tell what studies he is talking about. I'm not saying that he is necessarily or intentionally lying in those cases -- only that his documentation is insufficient.

Otherwise, I make lots of assumptions!

While you ingratiate yourself with Carol prior to having her for breakfast, I think the following post would also apply to your assumptions about Deepak Chopra.

On Thursday, November 16, 2000, DaveR ()@209.86.51.129 said:

The comedy is that some people "read" a book and have no idea what the author is presenting as fact, as surmise, as hearsay, as rumor, as unsubstantiated hypothesis, as lies, as fraud, as a scam, a con, or mind control. Not everything in print is true. Not every idea presented in print has been proven.

Bob F. knows what he knows.

And others know what he knows.

Therein lies the problem.

I know what I know,
and that is sufficient.

Dick, your comment about his being sued does make me wonder why he "borrows without asking" from other writers as we used to say on report cards. I have read that some of it has been lifted word for word.

Bob, sometimes you see antagonism where there is none -- in my question to you, for example. I assume the reason that you didn't answer it was because you thought I was trying to trap you.

Cathy, I wonder how much of this has to do with being right-brained or left-brained. I took a test once that put me right in the middle. Of course, like everybody else, I think that I'm right! :-)

Carol, you are right that Deepak refers to medical studies but he often doesn't tell which ones he is referring to. That's not a problem for a lot of people and sometimes I envy them.

You, Carol, are blossoming before our eyes and put us seeds and buds to shame. What has made the difference in you? If you don't want to share here, I hope that you will in email.

The only good marine is a submarine. Ah-ga-ga-ga-ga-ga! (Toot-toot!)

Like two politicians scumming for votes
Ingratiating themselves with simpler folk
they would cross the road to avoid
pretending they're not too annoyed
It's good for the ratin's
These two fools debatin'
But it does such harm to their cause
As they dis all the karmic laws
They think their sins ain't seen
Beyond this simple screen
But the mirror's a two way view
And Florida's reflecting you

Dick, I think it is only in California that Deepak doesn't have a medical license. Do you know how often Massachusetts medical licenses have to be renewed? I could be wrong. (Gasp!)

Regardless, who loves ya, babe?

Eat your veggies. Love, Grammy

P.S. DaveR, I am just kidding around. :-D

People who live in a state of bliss do not need or desire anything. They do not care what other people believe They don't blame anything on PAST conditioning. The Dahli Lama is a good example of this. No man can be hostile and enlightened all at once. An enlightened marine is a contradition. Turn loose of being a marine except for being loyal. It is the way you talk to people like they are dogs that make people not believe what you say. You are not the only one here who is acting like a dog. But you are the only one who meditates , levitate and sees aras and goes to Deepok Chopra and still talk down to people.

I wonder if Deepak's inability to respond to medical questions is really due to complexity (there are tons of REAL DOCTORS with advice forums) or maybe more due to the fact that he DOESN'T HAVE A MEDICAL LICENSE and would easily be sued and he's certainly had enough of that I'll bet ya. Harder to get sued for writing books....wait a minute...DOH!

Why do you think "Ask Dr. Chopra" was changed to "Ask Deepak" on chopra.com??

Cathy, that comment you made about the medical community not really looking into medical miracles to understand them is in my opinion an extremely ignorant statement. I dare you to utter that at your nearest cancer research center. Things that were medical miracles years ago are common practice today thanks to scientific research in the medical community.

Just because science cannot currently explain something, it does not logically follow that the only remaining explanation is a non-scientific one.

Carol - I don't need for you to defend me but I thank you ever so much for asking - your friendship and wisdom are very much appreciated.

Enlightened??? - Now you are getting things a little more correct.
a)I was a potty mouth - the old Marine Corps gave me a whole list of potty phrases.
b) Namaste' did not seem appropriate under the circumstances - sort of an oxymoron.
c) I would like to meditate more but how much more can I do without checking into an Ashram?

Got to go cook dinner before the wife gets home from her shopping spree.

10/4, over and out

Cathy - You are always one of level headed reasoning and intelligent questioning without antagonism - I salute you.

You have hit the nail on the head - I am sure my lack of paitence and somewhat abrasiveness at times, stifles getting across my message.

Corporate shrinks labled my conflict resolution style as "productive confrontation". It worked well for me in business but my epaulets also helped get people to listen. It does not work as well here (or does not work at all here). However, it is hard for a zebra to change its stripes (though I am trying).

Thanks for being here.

Carol, perhaps change is a good thing, eh? I like the now you much better than the old you, for reasons I have stated and, hopefully, implied. Your openness to things going on, your refusal to take sides, your ability to leave the "sides" issue alone while responding to the issues from your own viewpoint, all are signs of a much stronger person. Your willingness to be honest about your opinions, whether they are approved of or not, accepted or not, is also something I admire in people I like.

There are many things you say that I find difficult to accept at face value. I don't challenge you on them simply because you have done a great job of saying that the challenge is not important to you. You are who you are and that's what's important to you. It's important to me, too.

You made some great points within the past day or two about your observations of what "works" and what doesn't in this particular forum. If people come across as preaching and trying to convert, they are most likely to run into resistance and conflict from those who don't want that approach taken. If the views make sense, people will adopt them as much as they can and turn them to their own use. If they don't they will reject them. As long as the personality of someone with a particular view is not a prerequisite for accepting their view, of having to buy the messenger along with the message, opinions can be modified by other people's slants on them. It is a very strong person, stronger than I am, to say thanks for someone shoving something down their throat.

I agree with your observations and thought it astute of you to have seen those things.

by the way, Bob, do you need me to defend you? i like you very much and feel you are on the path. and i like your confidensce in yourself. i hope you have a great evening, too.

oooohhhh! Enlightened, tch tch, to you, too!!

A hypocrite AND a potty mouth! Oh my! At least that post didn't end in Namaste'. You need to meditate much much harder Bob!

Bob, i wasn't offended and i do believe that my post speaks for itself. actually, i was not defending you, tho, just trying to clarify when my name came up.

Ask Deepak!

Here is your chance to ask Deepak a question via e-mail. Responses will appear on Deepak's Board in the Community section of this site. Deepak will respond to as many questions regarding spirituality, philosophy, relationships, and achieving success and happiness as his schedule permits. Unfortunately, Deepak will be unable to respond to medical questions due to the complexity of these situations. Please limit your questions to 1 or 2 sentences. Thank you.

askdeepak@howtoknowgod.com

Dave - While I was rephrasing my request, you posted your answer - now that is synchrodestiny.

We all see things from our own viewpoint and colored by our own past conditioning. I thank Carol and D2 for speaking up and have my interpretaion of what they said. Your interpretation is different and that is what makes life interesting.

I know you hate to hear it again but, "I know what I know and that is sufficient for me". I was just trying to help you understand. Apparently, "You know what you know and that is sufficient for you". Why don't we just let it go at that.

Carol - To be truthful, it was kind of fun being that expressful - sorry if it offended anyone except the intended party.

Both of you have a great evening.

Cathy, it is entirely possible that Denis was NOT joking. Based on the remainder of his comments, I took it as a refusal to support while at the same time not actually saying so outright. In effect, a dodging of the issue.

oh, Cathy, i have been questioned by many here. no problem, it made me a better person, in the long run.

well, Dave, my position has softened, somewhat, but i would rather i was asked directly, for sure.

it truly is funny how we read the same things in different ways--I took D2 to be supporting Bob, by saying that he too levitated?? of course, I don't actually know D2 very well to know his sense of humor...and he may well have been kidding...

who knows? :-)

Cathy

Carol, that's what I thought. You have expressed before (maybe long enough ago that your position may have changed somewhat over time) that you dislike being referred to in the third person to support or bolster someone else's opinions and positions. Bob may not be aware of that dislike.

Man...busy day! Sometimes I "get into" discussion and sometimes it just isn't attractive to me (now). And once again the thought of balance comes to mind...sometimes talking about things is "good", and sometimes it isn't --by good I mean harmonizing/helpful, more or less. Anyway, I just want to express my support to those that feel as if they are being questioned and disbelieved, as well as to those who question and disbelieve :-)But, more so to those that are being questioned and disbelieved in this instance...because I feel that they were encouraged to share their experience by others here, and that we should simply accept that sharing as their experience--as Bob said, we cannot crawl into each other's skin (wouldn't that be creepy? ;-))--so, skin intact, we can only "know" what we "know" and allow others to "know" what they "know"--can't "make" each other know anything--even sometimes after good discussion :-)And certainly not after "bad" discussion ;-)

Carol I liked what you said about how you see knowing as only in the present...you know, it strikes me as odd that no one seems to question the things you "know" as they question Bob and others (or have I missed/forgotten stuff? ;-))---I'm not implying that they should, of course...maybe it's a personality issue? Bob, though I have found him to be much gentler of late, has in the past been less so...while you typically are quite not-self-saying and quiet in your expression...just a thought...

Greek chorus--you really are witty! Thanks for the chuckle...

Blessings all!

Cathy

Bob, see a few posts below for the paraphrases. Or are there some additional points in your asking for them again after my post?

i reread your comments, to Bob, Dave, and i just want to say that i have no desire to mediate in anyone's behalf. Bob is a big boy and i feel that you and he can work out this issue fine without me.

really, really, interested in Deepak's take on levitation, etc. yes, he answers the e-mails directly on the Deepak's Board site.

Dave - First of all - I think highly of your doing volunteer work with kids - you are a nice guy regardless of the fact we tend to differ on some pretty major issues.

I must not have made myself clear (which is not entirely unusual) on what I was asking for you to do. So, let me try it again.

You mentioned earlier that I tended to look for others to support my views (which I do occasionally with the hope of helping non-believers understand). You tossed out (in bold type) that no one seemed to agree that the things I have seen/experienced are reality. Then, Carol so gracefully came forward as did D2. In my opinion, their statements said that between the two of them, they had personally experienced all of what I have seen or experienced.

You came back with "It also looks to me as if the support you had hoped you would get -- isn't there. Would you care to interpret how others have supported your views, "if pressed", I'd be happy to provide my own paraphrases of them.

I thought what they said was pretty clear but maybe I misinterpreted. Consequently, I would like to take you up on your offer to parahrase what you thought they said.

If I am not clear this time, let me know and I will try again.

Thanks

Carol, thanks for the clearance on what I thought you had said.

But, "really, really interested" in what? Do those e-mails get answered?

no need, Dave, close enough. you know if we were really, really, interested, all we would have to do is post an e-mail at Deepak's Board at howtoknowgod.com, right?

sorry, Dave, i stepped on your post. let me check it out...

HA! and the beat goes on.....

Bob, that's a very expressive word!

Greek Chorous, Blessed are all the names on this page and beyond......

thanks, Kate, the bouquet is lovely. :)

Okay, Bob, here's what Carol said:

On Thursday, November 16, 2000, carol ()@38.37.124.124 said:

hi Dave, interesting morning. i have enjoyed the posts. i do remember Bob's post and inadvertently, by answering a query of Cathy's, have responded already, somewhat. while i do not know anything of levitation but have heard others speak of it, i can't personally respond to that one. as for Kundalini, auras, Oneness, Witnessing, Manifestation. yes, i have experienced those states or happenings, at one time or another. but as i have said, here, describing it is beyond words and mostly contradictory. so, i will decline any more attempt to try to clarify. i hope this is ok with you and i hope you don't see this as me siding with anyone. just trying to answer and participate.

What I hear Carol saying is that it's no big deal to her, and that she has no support for your claims about levitation. She also says that she has no desire to mediate in your behalf. She's not denying what you have claimed about the other effects, even says she has some personal awareness of those things, but will let it go with that and not try to embellish on what she's said to others in her own words in other posts. (Carol, if I have misrepresented your comments, please clarify further, if you feel the need.)

Here's what Denis said:

On Thursday, November 16, 2000, D2 (Really need to get back to work now.)@195.241.239.16 said:

Sorry Dave, no can help you there. I was sitting there with my eyes closed and busy myself levitating.

Good luck with trying to find those EYEwitness accounts though. You had to be there. If I had not been, I never would have met the greatest thing to ever happen to me, my wife...

This sounds like he's joking and that he has no desire to clarify any further. It does NOT sound like support for your claims. (Again, Denis, if this is not an accurate paraphrase, I invite your clarification, too.)

Bob, you referred to posts that Hadi and TO have made on the subject of levitation. Maybe you can demonstrate where they support your claims. What I remember is that they made no such claims. They may have said levitation is interesting, or that there are reports of such things actually taking place, but I don't recall either of them claiming to have witnessed such an event or having it happen to themselves. If I'm mistaken, I would like to see what they actually said. I'm not going on an archive hunt for that.

So far, none of the others you listed as being able to corroborate your assertions has stepped forward to do so. Maybe they will; maybe they won't. That remains to be seen, doesn't it?

Bob, if I understand your responses (and there's a good chance that I've gotten confused by them now) you're wanting me to provide instances of where I have treated "us" (unspecified) as "crazies" (your term). Since I don't think I have done such a thing, and since you made it sound as if I had, the burden is on you, not me, to back up your comment/accusation.

Is this a new form of justice we're playing? Am I guilty until I prove myself innocent? Is that how it works. If so, I refer you to your post to Enlightened?? for a response. Two can be little children if that's your way to Nirvana. Deepak is likely very proud that his teachings are having such tremendous effect.

Dick,

I just read your post...and I see what you're saying...but with regards to the medical miracles, fact is the medical community has not really looked at what goes on in these cases to understand it--as you imply that science does--i.e. look at things objectively to understand them. They simply call it, as one example, spontaneous remission or spontaneous cure and don't seem to wonder why one person "gets" this spontaneous healing and others don't. It behooves them to stick to the "not weird" cases and regular treatment. I do not discount science by any means. In fact, I applaud science and all its achievements--and the argument about removing feeling etc..is a legitimate one. But I also think that there are things that science doesn't answer--and that they choose to ignore because it isn't logical--like the medical miracles just mentioned. Yogis have done some amazing things with their physical bodies--that defy logic. I simply do not doubt that other things might be possible by people of certain levels of consciousness. My belief in the possibility of weird things like levitation etc...is based on that last sentence. I'm not saying it's so or it isn't so...therefore, I don't see myself as someone who's claiming the earth is flat, so to speak, despite "facts"--I see myself as someone who embraces scientific understanding but who is not limiting what I experience and know to what can be understood by the scientific method--it has some limits. Even still, I personally think that things like levitation etc...will one day be understood from a scientific standpoint. I have no vested interest in levitation--so I am not clinging to it as your article stated religious people do. I just don't doubt someone who says he has seen it because I have no reason to suspect that he would lie to me about it. On the other hand, I wouldn't be completely convinced of the fact of something as strange as levitation until I saw it myself in circumstances that seemed noncontrived. Even then, I think believing in the reality of something can be one of two things--a matter of desire--like the people you mentioned in your post--which can be good (if what they believe is actually true :-)) and bad. Or it can be a matter of understanding, like all the science stuff--but one has to remember that much stuff understood these days seemed magical and would have required faith before it was "proven"...I am sure there are infinite such frontiers before us...

Peggy

Your posts about how Deepak uses certain phrases without it actually being fact--like about the DNA--is a good one. I think it's a good thing to use one's head. I guess I just don't read that alertly---I tend to think in blocks--I read things and ponder them and sorta hold them as possibilities--more for the gist of things vs the specifics. Anyway, you are very astute :-)

As I reread this before posting it occurred to me that, as with most things in life it would seem, balance seems to be key. Believing things only on faith isn't good, and believing things only that have been investigated and "proven" isn't good either--in the material world or in personal affairs...life is too neat to be fit into a box, and truth can be stranger than fiction :-) My opinion, at least :-)

Cathy BTW, there were so many posts--I didn't read past Dick's before responding so if this post seems to repeat or ignore later posts--that's why...

Bob's mother needs to wash his mouth out with soap.

D2, we are again on the same page--ROFL. Greek Chorus gets gold stars! Watch that BP folks.

Dear Enlightened?? - I will show you just how unspiritual I can be when I allow myself to fall back to lower levels.

FUCK YOU

Greek Chorus / Peggy - Sorry the question went unanswered - just so many questions!

The whole judgement thing is a toughy. I do not like the term "to judge", for nothing is good or bad - everything just is.

The fact remains that some people are monetairly poor and others rich, some have low IQs and others high. There are levels to almost everything - none of them again either good or bad.

Consequently, if there is spirituality, there are levels. Deepak lists 7 levels, Ken Wilber also lists 7, and the Hindus and Buddhists have their own levels. Personally, I like the 7 levels I have posted here numerous times (ask Dave to find them, he is our official archivist).

Again - no level is good or bad - we are all on the same path, just at different junctures. (All IMO)

Namaste'

As Henry David Thoreau said,

If you have built castles in the air,
your work need not be lost;
that is where they should be.
Now put the foundations under them.

On Thursday, November 16, 2000, Bob F ()@63.81.160.198 said:
Why the antagonism - Blood Sugar running low in Tennessee this morning?

Namaste'

Someone needs to educate themself about the definition and meaning of Namaste'. It would be a good way of avoiding looking like a hypocrite.

He who levitates too often may have his head in the clouds.

Then Pegasus came forth and asked 2 pesky little questions:

Of Bob F: What criteria do you personally use for judging a person's spiritual development or level of awareness?

Of Geoff: What constitutes disproof to the non-skeptic?

And her questions went unanswered just as she intended, right Peg?

Then Bob F. from what must be a state of hellish Nirvana, interpreted Sagan. And there was much rolling of eyes and rolling over in the grave. The Chorus would refer Bob F. to Sagan's previously posted BS Detector. Let the archivists come forward!

Alas! DaveR had bitten through his tongue but continued to speak. The members of the Chorus covered their ears and made babbling sounds and interjected from time to time We can't hhheeeeaaaarrr you DaveR!

Then D2 rose and spoke with humor and justifiable pride. Go, D2, go!

Chris, catching the joy, entered trailing a cloud of stars.

From somewhere Terry continued his Charlie Chan impersonations. Aaaaah Soooo? Oooooh Noooo! It's all Greek to me.

And Dick Skep, living up to his name, may remember a time when the Age of Enlightenment was a time of Reasoning. Those were the good old days, eh Dick?

As Cathy listened and watched and questioned, Carol arose and went into their midst and demonstrated what others only spoke of. Blessed be the name of Carol.

Peggy - Good to see you and it is nice Dave volunteers his time with kids, they are the better off for it.

Please tell Dave he can consider himself "pressed". I would really like his intrepretaion of what D2 and Carol had to say.

Namaste'

Bob, Dave isn't here right now. He volunteers three days a week to teach a class in a local elementary school.

Dave - We were posting at the same time so I did not see your last response until now. I think I know what Carol and D2 said but please give me your interpretation - this is getting very interesting.

Thanks

More bouquets! Thanks for being here.

Dave - As we have discussed, I am not in your skin so I should not say you consider us lunatics - only you can say what you think we are. Consequently, if you would be so kind, would you please give your own answer to your first question?

What are your feelings and thoughts on my, D2 and Carol's comments on levitation, auras, Kundalini, etc. Geoff, Hadi and TO have already stated where they are coming from in previous posts. Do you feel we are luntics, misguided, smoking the evil weed or what?

Please set the record straight and tell us in your own words.

Namaste'

Bob, all it has to do is make sense, regardless of how many are for or against it.

By the way, I'm right-handed.

If you would like, I can find any number of your posts where you appeal to others to back you up on some comment or position. It just looks like your own word isn't good enough for you.

It also looks to me as if the support you had hoped you would get -- isn't there. Would you care to interpret how others have supported your views, "if pressed"? I'd be happy to provide my own paraphrases of them.

Dave - Did you really type this?? I get the feeling that you, Bob, are uncomfortable acting alone, speaking for yourself, stating your own position, without needing support or backup from others.

After our many somewhat "heated" discussions of the past, where I was the lone voice in the wilderness - how can you even raise such a question?

I only ask others to weigh in to help you see the light since I feel, (though maybe I am wrong) that you need a majority to say something is possible before you will consider it as possible.

You really are good for me in the "lessons to be learned" category. I disagree with you on spiritual matters but you disagree with me on everything. You are helping me grow in your left handed way. - Thanks

Bob, you just said, "Dave - I like your "open mindedness" much better - I can support your right to doubt but like it much better when you don't treat us like crazies."

Just for the sake of discussion, would you point out some examples of where I have treated anyone as "crazies"?

I seem to recall some posts where the topic of "we" and "us" was objected to, and where "taking sides" was seen as an unnecessary component of these discussions. However, in the spirit of your statement (above) I would like to see your examples of where I have treated "us" as "crazies."

I get the feeling that you, Bob, are uncomfortable acting alone, speaking for yourself, stating your own position, without needing support or backup from others. Is that the case, or am I misreading your words?

amen!

Carol, Chris V, Sharon, Dave, Denis - I n my humble opinion, this is what the Forum should look like.

Dave - I like your "open mindedness" much better - I can support your right to doubt but like it much better when you don't treat us like crazies.

Carol - Now I know what you mean. Since I believe all time is happening in the now and there is no past or future, I too believe that knowing (or not knowing) is also only in the now.

Chris V - Agreed, it is all nonsense, all B/S and all inconsequential in the scheme of things. "Why worry - be happy".

Namaste'

i must admit that D2 seemed to be floating about 2 feet off the ground the night of his wedding celebration, heh! ;)

thank you, Dave, i am pleased that you are pleased.

(((Chris))) thank you...

Sorry Dave, no can help you there. I was sitting there with my eyes closed and busy myself levitating.

Good luck with trying to find those EYEwitness accounts though. You had to be there. If I had not been, I never would have met the greatest thing to ever happen to me, my wife...

Chris, that's the spirit that I can relate to, as well! Sharing who we are, what we think, what we feel, and what we believe, is more relevant than any excerpts from "the masters" or the famous ones. After all, it's just the portion of what those guys/gals have said that we can assimilate (put into our own words and actions) that gives us any claim to their wisdom.

Carol, it is truly great to see you speaking your mind in your words and taking ownership of your ideas and opinions. These contributions carry much more weight -- for me -- than any of the quotes you have brought here before. It is a side of you that I have been hoping to see for so long.

More power to you!

Skeptics, believers, scientists, mystics it's all nonsense if you really think about it. But hey, it's our nonsense, its our story. Not that there is anything wrong with it. I love my stories and my nonsense. It's what makes being human such an adventure. Part of my story (in this moment at least) is to not take anything too seriously and not forget to play and enjoy our mutual humanity for what it is. I'm enjoying the conversation here this morning. Thanks for letting me fill in some space in your life. :-9

Carol you are truely and enlightned being. Thank you for Being you.

sure, i am loving this discussion. my comment is that we only know what is happening this moment. everything else is past or future and can only be speculation.

aaahhh! Bob, i enjoy scepticism, even indulge in it myself, heh!

Carol - In re-reading your last several posts on "knowing", I am not sure what you mean by "knowing" being only in the moment. I do agree that it is difficult (if not impossible) to convey one's true experience to another. Geoff put it very well in his analogy of a sighted person trying to explain where he/she is coming from in a world made up entirely of people blind since birth.

Are you having fun this morning???

Namaste'

Carol - Yes, there is great wisdom in the saying "Those that know don't speak and those that speak, don't know". It is exchanges like the last 20 or so posts that make one realize why those that know, don't want to speak. With the skeptics here, those of us that know, want to speak less and less.

Dave R - I have witnessed or personally experienced all of those things you highlighted in bold. However, there is no way I can convince you of where I am coming from since there is no way you can crawl behind my skin and see what I see. I know where you are coming from, I have been there. All I can say is "All in the fullness of time". Keep doubting and eventually a light may come on.

Namaste'

thanks, Sharon! :)

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