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While I'm feeling generous, here's another little excerpt from the Starbuilders site: An Experiment For many IROOT:NOTians, all of this - life, the universe, and everything - is an experiment. Stumbling through countless lifetimes trying to find The Answer is unnecessary. This endless search for The Answer is SOMEBODY ELSE'S IDEA! Bungling through one lifetime is enough. If you think about it, throughout history, great minds from all cultures have struggled to find The Answer. (Some have even claimed that THEY are The Answer.) Yet, whenever two people agree on what It is, they inevitably interpret it differently. What's worse, while you're in Search Mode (trying to find It), you usually create an additional layer of suffering. YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU MUST FIND IT TO BE HAPPY! IROOT:NOTians are quick (but cautious) to observe that The Answer PROBABLY DOESN'T EXIST! We've been spending at least part of our lives LOOKING, when EXPERIMENTING might have been less painful, more fun, and at least more holistic. Have you ever noticed that when you stop trying to get something or are indifferent towards it, the universe often drops it in your lap? Try saying, "Ah, who cares about the stupid Answer anyway" (and meaning it in a non-sarcastic way). Maybe The Answer (if it exists) will pop into your brain while you're brushing your teeth. As Evin, The Unsavior, I want to share this thought with you. It's neither a threat, a promise, nor a command. At best, it's like an angel's feather tickling your imagination. At worst, it could trigger a judgment program. click
An Experiment For many IROOT:NOTians, all of this - life, the universe, and everything - is an experiment. Stumbling through countless lifetimes trying to find The Answer is unnecessary. This endless search for The Answer is SOMEBODY ELSE'S IDEA! Bungling through one lifetime is enough. If you think about it, throughout history, great minds from all cultures have struggled to find The Answer. (Some have even claimed that THEY are The Answer.) Yet, whenever two people agree on what It is, they inevitably interpret it differently. What's worse, while you're in Search Mode (trying to find It), you usually create an additional layer of suffering. YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU MUST FIND IT TO BE HAPPY! IROOT:NOTians are quick (but cautious) to observe that The Answer PROBABLY DOESN'T EXIST! We've been spending at least part of our lives LOOKING, when EXPERIMENTING might have been less painful, more fun, and at least more holistic. Have you ever noticed that when you stop trying to get something or are indifferent towards it, the universe often drops it in your lap? Try saying, "Ah, who cares about the stupid Answer anyway" (and meaning it in a non-sarcastic way). Maybe The Answer (if it exists) will pop into your brain while you're brushing your teeth. As Evin, The Unsavior, I want to share this thought with you. It's neither a threat, a promise, nor a command. At best, it's like an angel's feather tickling your imagination. At worst, it could trigger a judgment program.
For many IROOT:NOTians, all of this - life, the universe, and everything - is an experiment. Stumbling through countless lifetimes trying to find The Answer is unnecessary. This endless search for The Answer is SOMEBODY ELSE'S IDEA! Bungling through one lifetime is enough.
If you think about it, throughout history, great minds from all cultures have struggled to find The Answer. (Some have even claimed that THEY are The Answer.) Yet, whenever two people agree on what It is, they inevitably interpret it differently. What's worse, while you're in Search Mode (trying to find It), you usually create an additional layer of suffering.
YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU MUST FIND IT TO BE HAPPY!
IROOT:NOTians are quick (but cautious) to observe that The Answer PROBABLY DOESN'T EXIST! We've been spending at least part of our lives LOOKING, when EXPERIMENTING might have been less painful, more fun, and at least more holistic.
Have you ever noticed that when you stop trying to get something or are indifferent towards it, the universe often drops it in your lap? Try saying, "Ah, who cares about the stupid Answer anyway" (and meaning it in a non-sarcastic way). Maybe The Answer (if it exists) will pop into your brain while you're brushing your teeth. As Evin, The Unsavior, I want to share this thought with you. It's neither a threat, a promise, nor a command. At best, it's like an angel's feather tickling your imagination. At worst, it could trigger a judgment program.
click
I was once accused of not believing in God. After seeing the interview with Larry King I was assured that Mr. Chopra and I are on the same wave. I bought his book "How to Know God." It's amazing how two different people can have the same ideas about God. Thank you.
Good morning people (and others), A while back someone mentioned a book called "Mutant message downunder". I still haven't sought out that book but I found an interesting link where it is discussed from the Aboriginal point of view - click here Interestingly enough I wasn't actually searching for it at all. :) I was looking for a few links to include along with excerpts from Native Wisdom for White Minds, which I have just added to my site. Click here. The things you find when you're not even looking ... :) Have fun.
A while back someone mentioned a book called "Mutant message downunder". I still haven't sought out that book but I found an interesting link where it is discussed from the Aboriginal point of view -
click here
Interestingly enough I wasn't actually searching for it at all. :) I was looking for a few links to include along with excerpts from Native Wisdom for White Minds, which I have just added to my site. Click here.
The things you find when you're not even looking ... :)
Have fun.
Another interesting perspective on the question of 'truth' comes from a wonderful little book called ET101: The cosmic instruction manual for planetary evolution by Zoev Jho (aka Diana Luppi) - Truth We have noticed that you pretend to value truth on this planet. Some spend a lifetime seeking it. Your legal systems demand it, and you can be sued if your business doesn't practise it. Your philosophers define it, your scientists measure it, your religions exalt it, and you all fight over it. Meanwhile, all you are doing is paying global lip service to it. There is an excellent reason for all this: You have no idea what truth really is. How the obvious has escaped you is a tedious story. The abridged version of it amounts to this: You embraced fear. After that unholy act, it has been downhill ever since. Fear is the first lie, the lie that tells you that you are separated from the whole. Once it has been embraced, you are incapable of ever telling the truth under any circumstances without blowing the game. Truth, by its nature, is the light. Fear cannot, by its nature, be in the light without dying. It becomes a simple matter of self interest. Fear has owned this planet, its people, and their systems for a long time. It does not wish to give up the property it has acquired because it is a parasitic life form which cannot live separated from your life forces. The truth is, you are the truth. It is not external to you, as you have been led to believe. For that reason, it is ludicrous to set out on a spiritual journey in search of it. It is likewise ridiculous to punish those who do not practice it when almost nobody on this planet does. As for philosophising over it, how can you when you wouldn't recognise it if it ran over you in the street? Meanwhile, measuring it is done in your attempt to dominate it, leading you further into the lie that it lives outside of you like an enemy that must be controlled. To exalt it is also to see it as separate. And fighting over it is so absurd as to not deserve our comment at all. The totality of your clinically insane behaviour surrounding truth has been cleverly manipulated by fearin its attempts to keep your eyes off the truth. In this manner, fear was able to continue uninterrupted and undetected in its process of eating you alive. But don't worry - ther is a cure. All you need do is awaken to the fact that you are the truth. As the light comes on, the parasite will die, leaving you joyously able to reclaim command. - ET101: The cosmic instruction manual for planetary evolution by Zoev Jho (aka Diana Luppi) It's a great little book if you ever see it around. I just happened to pick it up at a book sale last year and I love the blend of humour and insight. One without the other is somehow less memorable. There is much truth to be found in its pages. :)
We have noticed that you pretend to value truth on this planet. Some spend a lifetime seeking it. Your legal systems demand it, and you can be sued if your business doesn't practise it. Your philosophers define it, your scientists measure it, your religions exalt it, and you all fight over it. Meanwhile, all you are doing is paying global lip service to it. There is an excellent reason for all this: You have no idea what truth really is. How the obvious has escaped you is a tedious story. The abridged version of it amounts to this: You embraced fear. After that unholy act, it has been downhill ever since. Fear is the first lie, the lie that tells you that you are separated from the whole. Once it has been embraced, you are incapable of ever telling the truth under any circumstances without blowing the game. Truth, by its nature, is the light. Fear cannot, by its nature, be in the light without dying. It becomes a simple matter of self interest. Fear has owned this planet, its people, and their systems for a long time. It does not wish to give up the property it has acquired because it is a parasitic life form which cannot live separated from your life forces. The truth is, you are the truth. It is not external to you, as you have been led to believe. For that reason, it is ludicrous to set out on a spiritual journey in search of it. It is likewise ridiculous to punish those who do not practice it when almost nobody on this planet does. As for philosophising over it, how can you when you wouldn't recognise it if it ran over you in the street? Meanwhile, measuring it is done in your attempt to dominate it, leading you further into the lie that it lives outside of you like an enemy that must be controlled. To exalt it is also to see it as separate. And fighting over it is so absurd as to not deserve our comment at all. The totality of your clinically insane behaviour surrounding truth has been cleverly manipulated by fearin its attempts to keep your eyes off the truth. In this manner, fear was able to continue uninterrupted and undetected in its process of eating you alive. But don't worry - ther is a cure. All you need do is awaken to the fact that you are the truth. As the light comes on, the parasite will die, leaving you joyously able to reclaim command. - ET101: The cosmic instruction manual for planetary evolution by Zoev Jho (aka Diana Luppi)
We have noticed that you pretend to value truth on this planet. Some spend a lifetime seeking it. Your legal systems demand it, and you can be sued if your business doesn't practise it. Your philosophers define it, your scientists measure it, your religions exalt it, and you all fight over it. Meanwhile, all you are doing is paying global lip service to it. There is an excellent reason for all this: You have no idea what truth really is.
How the obvious has escaped you is a tedious story. The abridged version of it amounts to this: You embraced fear. After that unholy act, it has been downhill ever since. Fear is the first lie, the lie that tells you that you are separated from the whole. Once it has been embraced, you are incapable of ever telling the truth under any circumstances without blowing the game.
Truth, by its nature, is the light. Fear cannot, by its nature, be in the light without dying. It becomes a simple matter of self interest. Fear has owned this planet, its people, and their systems for a long time. It does not wish to give up the property it has acquired because it is a parasitic life form which cannot live separated from your life forces.
The truth is, you are the truth. It is not external to you, as you have been led to believe. For that reason, it is ludicrous to set out on a spiritual journey in search of it. It is likewise ridiculous to punish those who do not practice it when almost nobody on this planet does. As for philosophising over it, how can you when you wouldn't recognise it if it ran over you in the street? Meanwhile, measuring it is done in your attempt to dominate it, leading you further into the lie that it lives outside of you like an enemy that must be controlled. To exalt it is also to see it as separate. And fighting over it is so absurd as to not deserve our comment at all.
The totality of your clinically insane behaviour surrounding truth has been cleverly manipulated by fearin its attempts to keep your eyes off the truth. In this manner, fear was able to continue uninterrupted and undetected in its process of eating you alive. But don't worry - ther is a cure. All you need do is awaken to the fact that you are the truth. As the light comes on, the parasite will die, leaving you joyously able to reclaim command.
It's a great little book if you ever see it around. I just happened to pick it up at a book sale last year and I love the blend of humour and insight. One without the other is somehow less memorable. There is much truth to be found in its pages. :)
jlm/;m;:
hello
thanks and yes, Dave, i know..... ;)
just caught your pig post on refresh!!! and hahahaha!!! loved it!
Sure thing, Carol. Hope your day is special! (I know you've said they all are, but you know what I mean.)
well, Dave, it has been fun floating around cyberspace with you this am, but i have some wood to chop and water to carry, so to speak. mundane things, not nearly as much fun as playing with you, but......well, you know.... :) so here is wishing you and Peggy a good day! "see" you later, i hope?
This "time" subject reminds me of the time this effeciency expert was driving in the country and spotted a farmer under an apple tree holding a pig in his arms, plucking apples, and feeding them, one by one, to the pig.The expert stops his car, goes over to the farmer, and says, "I know it's really none of my business, but I couldn't help but want to tell you that you could save a lot of time if you just set the pig on the ground, shake the tree real good and the apples would be all over the ground and the pig could eat all it wants."The farmer looks at him with this strange expression on his face and says,"Hell, man. Time ain't nothing to a pig."
The expert stops his car, goes over to the farmer, and says, "I know it's really none of my business, but I couldn't help but want to tell you that you could save a lot of time if you just set the pig on the ground, shake the tree real good and the apples would be all over the ground and the pig could eat all it wants."
The farmer looks at him with this strange expression on his face and says,"Hell, man. Time ain't nothing to a pig."
but, yes, that is a wierd thing to realize. one of her sons celebrates 2/28 and the other celebrate 3/1. i often wondered about those choices too.
she only had two children, too. different fathers but same birthdays.
my sister, in TN, had two sons born on that date! that was real wierd, too.
Just the other day I was talking with somebody about birthdays and how people with February 29th birthdays really have to do without a real birthday three out of four years. That is unless that want to count February 29th as going by just in the moment between 11:59:59 Feb/28 and 12:00:01 Mar/1. Talk about "before" and "after" in their true sense and you get locked up in weird!
wierd feelings for sure, Dave!!!
too many afters and befores in that post, heh!
Your "just before" and "just after" thing makes me remember one time when I was playing around with a tape recorder and tried to describe exactly what was going on, including my feelings about what was going on, and trying to stay "right in the moment" and continue that for as long as it made any sense. Weird feelings!
i meant to write that i posted right after the experience.
ooops! the experience was just moments before!! haha!
haha! let's catch up here. yes, spring in Florida, aaaaahhhh! it was a clear beautiful night and was not cold, sort of "springy", heh! but no, please be my guest if you find it and wish to post it, that's great. my notes may not be exact as sometimes i may change a word or two. but the remarkable thing about this particular post is that the Onederful experience was just moments after. i'm not sure i have ever related an experience that shortly after, before.
Yes, I see. No point reposting it is there? We were kinda stepping on each other with our posts.Have you ever had the thought, when reading back to catch up, how some posts are within seconds of each other, and others (right next to each other) are days (or longer) apart?
Have you ever had the thought, when reading back to catch up, how some posts are within seconds of each other, and others (right next to each other) are days (or longer) apart?
scrool down one post, Dave, and you will find Dec 1999 is about when i posted it....
Goody, goody! I'll go back and copy that here, unless you'd like to yourself.I had the thought that when you said "spring" that in Florida that could be almost anytime!
I had the thought that when you said "spring" that in Florida that could be almost anytime!
That is a beautiful thought, Carol. I should have found that in the "shuttle" search, so I must have missed the timeframe. Anything in your notes to indicate when you did post that? (Now I'm very curious :-))
it was longer ago than i thought, Dave. it was in December of 1999! my how time flies when you're having a good time!!!! :)
haha! i guess not and the spaceship one won't find it either.but, i found it, here. i had copied it but thought i would never find it but it was EZ, heh! ok, Cathy, the following is one of my perfect moments in time: Discovery lifted off, a few minutes ago, and it was awesome! it was one of the most beautiful liftoffs i have ever seen. as i witnessed the shuttle hurtling thru space, i had a feeling of all the people in the world. 6 billion of us, all unique and beautiful. i felt i was standing 60 feet high and i could see all of the people, my mind expanded to the point that i could see past the earth, past the people and past the stars, it was as if i could see forever......
Carol, does this ring any bells?On Tuesday, February 22, 2000, Carol (Space Coast News/ 6:22pm EST)@205.188.196.44 said: Endeavour just touched down!! What a beautiful sight to behold!!! :)
On Tuesday, February 22, 2000, Carol (Space Coast News/ 6:22pm EST)@205.188.196.44 said: Endeavour just touched down!! What a beautiful sight to behold!!! :)
Okay, Carol, I'll give that a shot.I had started back through using "carol" but (as you might guess) that's not moving very fast! :-)
I had started back through using "carol" but (as you might guess) that's not moving very fast! :-)
Dave, i just thought of one more word, maybe spaceship?
ok, Dave, just checked in and see your having no luck. let me look from here or try to rethink the experience enough to relate it again. thanks anyway! :)
Still no luck, Carol. Went all the way back to February for "shuttle" and didn't get one hit. If a retelling isn't something you're comfortable with, maybe you can think of some other word that might be in your post. I tried. :-(
Sorry, Carol, but the search for "discovery" (all the way from April to September this year) only brought up some things that had nothing to do with your experience. I'll try again with "shuttle" since I seem to associate that word with what I remember. Gone again...
i'll check in later, Dave, to see if you had any luck and thanks!
synchronicity abounds. i didn't expect such quick service! :)
Carol, I seem to remember that post now, and I agree that Discovery is a good try. On my way...
i was trying to remember which shuttle it was, you might write in Discovery? i'm not sure which one, tho....
sorry, Dave, i was away reading your link. interesting synchronicity for you.
It's usually easiest, in locating specific posts, if I search for some "keyword" that was part of it. Is there such a "keyword" that you know was in your shuttle post? Maybe "shuttle" or "ecstasy" or "oneness" or something you're pretty sure you said at the time?
haha! thanks Dave. maybe you will be able to find it? it was a short paragraph.
good morning, Dave. i have enjoyed reading your posts but will check out the link for a kinder and gentler version of your truth, heh! ;)
Hi, Carol. I'll be happy to look for and repost the thing you've described.
Good Morning! thanks to everyone for the wonderful comments and posts. especially, Peggy, your expression of love is warmly received. and, Cathy, i never felt you implied, in your post, that anyone should leave. i'm sorry if my post led you to feel that way. and thanks, Cathy, for asking for my moment/s of discovery of our Oneness. i was speaking of one in particular but there have been many perfect moments, in my life, where i have felt this Oneness. i posted one recently, here, it would have been in the spring. maybe June or May? i'm not sure, i wonder if Dave could search it out for me. it was one night when i was watching the space shuttle go up and i felt as if i was standing tall and the world was growing below me and my feelings of being one with everything was quite wonderful. i will be pleased to reread what i wrote that night. i really only remember the experiences in sensations, words really can not describe it but since i wrote this only moments after, it might have some credence. hope everyone enjoys the weekend, love and peace to all, Namasté.
With all due apologies, I had not read this link that Link posted before spouting off just now. This person has said my thoughts much more gently and more persuasively than I have.Hadi, if you want a clear picture of what I believe, check out this link!
Hadi, if you want a clear picture of what I believe, check out this link!
In those linked articles below, which I admit to quick scanning only at this point, there's a point of view that I feel very uncomfortable with. It's the notion that God and Morality are somehow part and parcel of the same thing. I contend they are not.It's quite easy for me to accept that we didn't just get here by random chance. Things are too well organized and intricate for me to be persuaded by that explanation. So, in the sense that God can be credited with the Nature we find ourselves operating within, I can use the word "God" without feeling hypocritical. I just don't associate God and Morality.Morality, as I see it, is the product of observing how actions on the grand scale by our fellow human beings have translated into the betterment of our race or into the harm to the race. Rather than crediting Humanity with the labor of working out, through various systems of justice and culture over the centuries, what's Good and what's Evil, there seems to be some need to attribute those findings to the same Being that put us here. I see no good reason to equate the two.One of the things I'm most passionate about is that as long as we cling to the supernatural explanations and feel obligated to remove our mortality from anything that Humanity has created, thus ascribing that creation to the Immortal, we will continue to wander around in ignorance and superstition. At least in this broad sense I can endorse some of what Deepak is prescribing for how to improve ourselves. I do believe that Humanity can raise itself out of the mire by focusing on our own powers, in spite of our mortality, and reach better solutions to our plight in this life.One of the saddest things for me is to see the pettiness of believing that some afterlife, or return in some other incarnation, is good enough. As long as we kid ourselves with those placations, and spend our time preparing for the hereafter, we're ignoring the real job at hand.Admitting, without hubris (excessive pride), that our species is capable of great things -- go check Geoff's list of "Proof of Soul" (or however he worded it) -- and using the worth of those accomplishments to strengthen our resolve that, even though each of us will die and may never return in any form, we can make a difference in the future of our species, we could be fostering many more Shakespeares, Einsteins, Chopras, Sagans and Van Goghs to help us focus on the things that might in time save us from the thing we all dread the most: our own deaths.When I say "dread" I'm fully aware that not all of us dread death. Many have found comfort against that eventuality in ways that remove dread from their thinking and even feeling. I just hope we can find ways to avoid the dread by looking Death straight in the face and saying "So What?"
It's quite easy for me to accept that we didn't just get here by random chance. Things are too well organized and intricate for me to be persuaded by that explanation. So, in the sense that God can be credited with the Nature we find ourselves operating within, I can use the word "God" without feeling hypocritical. I just don't associate God and Morality.
Morality, as I see it, is the product of observing how actions on the grand scale by our fellow human beings have translated into the betterment of our race or into the harm to the race. Rather than crediting Humanity with the labor of working out, through various systems of justice and culture over the centuries, what's Good and what's Evil, there seems to be some need to attribute those findings to the same Being that put us here. I see no good reason to equate the two.
One of the things I'm most passionate about is that as long as we cling to the supernatural explanations and feel obligated to remove our mortality from anything that Humanity has created, thus ascribing that creation to the Immortal, we will continue to wander around in ignorance and superstition. At least in this broad sense I can endorse some of what Deepak is prescribing for how to improve ourselves. I do believe that Humanity can raise itself out of the mire by focusing on our own powers, in spite of our mortality, and reach better solutions to our plight in this life.
One of the saddest things for me is to see the pettiness of believing that some afterlife, or return in some other incarnation, is good enough. As long as we kid ourselves with those placations, and spend our time preparing for the hereafter, we're ignoring the real job at hand.
Admitting, without hubris (excessive pride), that our species is capable of great things -- go check Geoff's list of "Proof of Soul" (or however he worded it) -- and using the worth of those accomplishments to strengthen our resolve that, even though each of us will die and may never return in any form, we can make a difference in the future of our species, we could be fostering many more Shakespeares, Einsteins, Chopras, Sagans and Van Goghs to help us focus on the things that might in time save us from the thing we all dread the most: our own deaths.
When I say "dread" I'm fully aware that not all of us dread death. Many have found comfort against that eventuality in ways that remove dread from their thinking and even feeling. I just hope we can find ways to avoid the dread by looking Death straight in the face and saying "So What?"
In the third of Link's links, there's an interesting position being stated about how we lie to ourselves and how those lies engender more lies.It might make for some interesting twists on the discussion of Truth and Belief and Opinion, if we could have the honesty to list those ways we lie to ourselves. This would be, in a way, sort of an ultimate way of dealing with our own versions of Truth. If we can be fair enough with our own egos (I really am beginning to hate that word!) to poke deeply enough to locate our lies to ourselves, I suspect our Truth would be much easier to express.I will have to look at this carefully in private before I dare to share with you people just what my lies are. But I'm at least going to spend some "quiet time" doing just that.
It might make for some interesting twists on the discussion of Truth and Belief and Opinion, if we could have the honesty to list those ways we lie to ourselves. This would be, in a way, sort of an ultimate way of dealing with our own versions of Truth. If we can be fair enough with our own egos (I really am beginning to hate that word!) to poke deeply enough to locate our lies to ourselves, I suspect our Truth would be much easier to express.
I will have to look at this carefully in private before I dare to share with you people just what my lies are. But I'm at least going to spend some "quiet time" doing just that.
Geoff (aka Link), thanks for those links! If I haven't said it to you before, I really like the way your openness to alternative viewpoints is expressed. I believe Chris's comments just below are very fitting to the way you conduct yourself here. You seem to be comfortable with where your "base" is located, and have it in reserve for when you're being questioned or even attacked about your opinions or stances on issues. Your humility is a model for the more hot-headed of us to emulate. (It has already served me as an example of how to maintain some "cool" in the midst of the heat.)Knowing how well positive feedback can make one re-center even more quickly, I want this positive feedback to you to help serve that function -- if it's even an issue with you -- which I doubt! :-)Just letting you know you are appreciated!
Knowing how well positive feedback can make one re-center even more quickly, I want this positive feedback to you to help serve that function -- if it's even an issue with you -- which I doubt! :-)
Just letting you know you are appreciated!
Hi, Lennie. You can put me down for full agreement with what you've just said.
Good morning Dave.
Chris,Geoff and Peggy what a nice read to start my day on marvelous my dear simply marvelous!Oh and don't forget profound,if it is possible for everyone who reads to just stop and asorb what was written and do me a favor dont pick it apart it is such a simple truth.And the wonder of it all it was free.
Chris, Geoff, and Peggy, you have expressed some very real thoughts, as I relate to them. I'm not going back to the exact phrasing I used in my list, but it was on the order of "We can learn from even the dullest of people."I admire people who have studied and internalized a great many ideas and philosophical concepts. Listening to them expressing those things they "know" in their own words and seeing how they apply those things to their "walkaround" daily lives is a true inspiration. There are such people, and I have had the honor of being in their presence at times. Some have been teachers, and others have had the celebrity status to make their lives and actions more accessible to many more people than "the common person." When they're motivated by a genuine concern for their fellow human beings and are wanting to share their wisdom, I have the utmost respect and awe for their gifts.But I have met many others, in bars, in day jobs, on a bench in the park, working in gas stations or "stop and rob" convenience stores, and even on the phone making telemarketing calls, whose total awareness of who they are and what their own personal assessment of Life is all about, leaves me in as much awe and respect as the more eloquent and educated ones. However they have come to it, they have a sense of what works and what doesn't. They're not haughty about it, they don't preach, they don't even much care if they have all the right words to express their "deeper understandings" of it all. They just show by their actions, by their concern, and by their willingness to be involved with other people, that they know what's real and what isn't.Having had the opportunity to know so many of the real "wise ones" who walk our streets, work in our offices, pay our taxes, and try to make things as comfortable as possible for their families and friends, I'm always mystified when I see the ones who haven't a clue about many of these "common decencies" trying to tell those who do how wrong they are, or how misguided.There's a perception that our civilization is poised on the brink of self-destruction. We hear doomspeak almost daily -- if we listen for it. But the quickest way to discover that it's not so bleak is to turn off the TV and radio, don't pick up a newspaper, leave the computer alone, and just get away from the ratrace for a few days. Every time Peg and I get away for a few days to "recharge our batteries" we encounter so many people whose vitality and sense of well-being is almost stamped on their foreheads. Their actions and words are ample evidence to me that, for the most part, our society is okay. The media would have us think otherwise, but then they almost have to when you think about it. Who would tune in to a program that told us everything was hunky-dory and there's really nothing to be alarmed about? And even the ones who make regular Sunday trips to their church of choice, to hear the messages about sin and evil, are usually smiling when the come out of the building. After all, it is sort of a social thing, isn't it?My suspicion is that many people who wander into this forum are looking for answers to questions that have been bugging them. Maybe they have had some unexplained things happen that they're very curious about. Maybe they're in pain and have gotten no satifactory solutions to their troubles. Maybe they're not quite convinced that Deepak Chopra has all the right words in his books and tapes, and want to explore those uncertainties. Maybe they just like to talk with others who gravitate here. Maybe each of us is coming from some combination of those things.But I believe we can all learn from each other. And I think the thing I've been learning best here is that, no matter where we're coming from as individuals, there is this sense of unity-in-purpose to what we're doing here. I think that's a good thing.
I admire people who have studied and internalized a great many ideas and philosophical concepts. Listening to them expressing those things they "know" in their own words and seeing how they apply those things to their "walkaround" daily lives is a true inspiration. There are such people, and I have had the honor of being in their presence at times. Some have been teachers, and others have had the celebrity status to make their lives and actions more accessible to many more people than "the common person." When they're motivated by a genuine concern for their fellow human beings and are wanting to share their wisdom, I have the utmost respect and awe for their gifts.
But I have met many others, in bars, in day jobs, on a bench in the park, working in gas stations or "stop and rob" convenience stores, and even on the phone making telemarketing calls, whose total awareness of who they are and what their own personal assessment of Life is all about, leaves me in as much awe and respect as the more eloquent and educated ones. However they have come to it, they have a sense of what works and what doesn't. They're not haughty about it, they don't preach, they don't even much care if they have all the right words to express their "deeper understandings" of it all. They just show by their actions, by their concern, and by their willingness to be involved with other people, that they know what's real and what isn't.
Having had the opportunity to know so many of the real "wise ones" who walk our streets, work in our offices, pay our taxes, and try to make things as comfortable as possible for their families and friends, I'm always mystified when I see the ones who haven't a clue about many of these "common decencies" trying to tell those who do how wrong they are, or how misguided.
There's a perception that our civilization is poised on the brink of self-destruction. We hear doomspeak almost daily -- if we listen for it. But the quickest way to discover that it's not so bleak is to turn off the TV and radio, don't pick up a newspaper, leave the computer alone, and just get away from the ratrace for a few days. Every time Peg and I get away for a few days to "recharge our batteries" we encounter so many people whose vitality and sense of well-being is almost stamped on their foreheads. Their actions and words are ample evidence to me that, for the most part, our society is okay. The media would have us think otherwise, but then they almost have to when you think about it. Who would tune in to a program that told us everything was hunky-dory and there's really nothing to be alarmed about? And even the ones who make regular Sunday trips to their church of choice, to hear the messages about sin and evil, are usually smiling when the come out of the building. After all, it is sort of a social thing, isn't it?
My suspicion is that many people who wander into this forum are looking for answers to questions that have been bugging them. Maybe they have had some unexplained things happen that they're very curious about. Maybe they're in pain and have gotten no satifactory solutions to their troubles. Maybe they're not quite convinced that Deepak Chopra has all the right words in his books and tapes, and want to explore those uncertainties. Maybe they just like to talk with others who gravitate here. Maybe each of us is coming from some combination of those things.
But I believe we can all learn from each other. And I think the thing I've been learning best here is that, no matter where we're coming from as individuals, there is this sense of unity-in-purpose to what we're doing here. I think that's a good thing.
"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt." Robert Persig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Whenever I see someone frantically trying to convince me of anything I try and remember the quote above. The motivation behind getting others to agree with your beliefs comes from an insecurity in those beliefs. The people I find most attractive are the ones that like Peggy said, lead and don't push. People, who by their very calming presence or "walking the talk" get my attention and make me want to know more about what makes them tick, and why are they so peaceful, optimistic and energized in the midst of all the turmoils of life. When I hear people passionately pleading their case or their beliefs, or dogmatically declaring that they have found the ultimate Truth I tend to smile and look instead for the people who are living "Truth". This is not to say that these people aren't passionate, but their passionate energy is focused on experiencing, being and lovingly sharing their truth, not trying to stuff it down other people's throats. I have a whole bunch of beliefs and I recognize that the ones I have the greatest attachment to and am the quickest to defend are those beliefs I deep down doubt the most. My spiritual beliefs are some of the beliefs that I have the least amount of attachment too. Not because I'm not passionate about them, on the contrary, but I have the greatest confidence in the essence of "Truth" behind them and so don't struggle with trying to rally support from others to validate them.
Robert Persig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
Whenever I see someone frantically trying to convince me of anything I try and remember the quote above. The motivation behind getting others to agree with your beliefs comes from an insecurity in those beliefs. The people I find most attractive are the ones that like Peggy said, lead and don't push. People, who by their very calming presence or "walking the talk" get my attention and make me want to know more about what makes them tick, and why are they so peaceful, optimistic and energized in the midst of all the turmoils of life. When I hear people passionately pleading their case or their beliefs, or dogmatically declaring that they have found the ultimate Truth I tend to smile and look instead for the people who are living "Truth". This is not to say that these people aren't passionate, but their passionate energy is focused on experiencing, being and lovingly sharing their truth, not trying to stuff it down other people's throats.
I have a whole bunch of beliefs and I recognize that the ones I have the greatest attachment to and am the quickest to defend are those beliefs I deep down doubt the most. My spiritual beliefs are some of the beliefs that I have the least amount of attachment too. Not because I'm not passionate about them, on the contrary, but I have the greatest confidence in the essence of "Truth" behind them and so don't struggle with trying to rally support from others to validate them.
Beautifully said, Peggy. My favourite definitions of truth: "The Truth is a living entity. Your mind can never capture it. Once you speak, you leave Its domain. You move into the denser realm of fact or guess. Once there, someone can always contradict what you say." - from Starbuilders Plus a quote from Kierkegaard (spelling?) that the truth is that which makes you a better being. So it's apersonal thing. :) Besides which, who's to judge if you are a 'better' being? Better than what? :) Namaste.
My favourite definitions of truth:
"The Truth is a living entity. Your mind can never capture it. Once you speak, you leave Its domain. You move into the denser realm of fact or guess. Once there, someone can always contradict what you say." - from Starbuilders
Plus a quote from Kierkegaard (spelling?) that the truth is that which makes you a better being. So it's apersonal thing. :)
Besides which, who's to judge if you are a 'better' being? Better than what? :)
Namaste.
Late night thoughts: I just finished watching an HBO program on internet hate groups. The thing that struck me is how profoundly members of these various groups are convinced that what they are doing is for the good of the nation. It had never occurred to me before that Timothy McVay might see himself as a hero. I was stunned that the author of The Turner Diaries looked like such a pleasant old man. How do people get caught up in these groups? I know that I must sound terribly naive. There is a lot of harm that can spring from "knowing" that you are right. I've seen it happen to religious leaders, teachers, political tyrants, mental health patients and well-intentioned parents. What a strange assortment! My own choice now, I think, is to become more cautious around people who know it all. It is possible that I may miss out on a lot of insights in doing that. I do respect that certain people may have had great revelations. But I had rather gather glimpses of truth from people who are either content with their lives or who are seeking answers. I feel more at ease with someone who also feels comfortable saying, "I don't know." I will be wary of people who have decided that they will push rather than lead. If you are still looking for answers or if you are generally at peace with yourself and others, I would appreciate a nudge when you see me getting too puffed up with myself. (Many of us are guilty at one time or another.) But I won't put much stock in what you say unless you demonstrate the truths that you say that you believe. You don't have to be perfect -- just a little centered and compassionate. I thank those of you who see past the smart-aleck in me. I like the out-spoken nature that I have but I do wish that I had the gift of tact that so many of you bring here. And God bless the crazy and defiant Dennis Miller who always says, "That's my opinion but I could be wrong." Well, TMOBICBW...
I just finished watching an HBO program on internet hate groups. The thing that struck me is how profoundly members of these various groups are convinced that what they are doing is for the good of the nation. It had never occurred to me before that Timothy McVay might see himself as a hero. I was stunned that the author of The Turner Diaries looked like such a pleasant old man. How do people get caught up in these groups? I know that I must sound terribly naive.
There is a lot of harm that can spring from "knowing" that you are right. I've seen it happen to religious leaders, teachers, political tyrants, mental health patients and well-intentioned parents. What a strange assortment!
My own choice now, I think, is to become more cautious around people who know it all. It is possible that I may miss out on a lot of insights in doing that. I do respect that certain people may have had great revelations. But I had rather gather glimpses of truth from people who are either content with their lives or who are seeking answers. I feel more at ease with someone who also feels comfortable saying, "I don't know." I will be wary of people who have decided that they will push rather than lead.
If you are still looking for answers or if you are generally at peace with yourself and others, I would appreciate a nudge when you see me getting too puffed up with myself. (Many of us are guilty at one time or another.) But I won't put much stock in what you say unless you demonstrate the truths that you say that you believe. You don't have to be perfect -- just a little centered and compassionate.
I thank those of you who see past the smart-aleck in me. I like the out-spoken nature that I have but I do wish that I had the gift of tact that so many of you bring here.
And God bless the crazy and defiant Dennis Miller who always says, "That's my opinion but I could be wrong."
Well, TMOBICBW...
Good morning folks, Just a brief visit - I have just had a quick flick through recent posts and plugged "Can We Be Good Without God" into a search engine and came up with a couple of interesting links - Interesting debate Donna Morrison-Reed Office Hours article OnMission.com I haven't had a chance to thoroughly read these links so don't blame me if they aren't your cup-of-tea. Blaming is a bad habit anyways ... More later ...
Just a brief visit - I have just had a quick flick through recent posts and plugged "Can We Be Good Without God" into a search engine and came up with a couple of interesting links -
Interesting debate
Donna Morrison-Reed
Office Hours article
OnMission.com
I haven't had a chance to thoroughly read these links so don't blame me if they aren't your cup-of-tea. Blaming is a bad habit anyways ...
More later ...
hadi, how come you never answered dave's question "Just what is the nature of your beef with me?" in your response that begins "Well, Dave that's rich" you point to problems with Kate and Peggy but you don't mention Dave. is he guilty by association? you don't mention it at all except then you start quizzing him on his beliefs? what is that? is that your beef? that you don't agree with his beliefs? man, that's shallow!
in your response that begins "Well, Dave that's rich" you point to problems with Kate and Peggy but you don't mention Dave. is he guilty by association? you don't mention it at all except then you start quizzing him on his beliefs? what is that?
is that your beef? that you don't agree with his beliefs? man, that's shallow!
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