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Dave, apologies if my little attempt at humour gave you the wrong impression. :) I am referring to 'handing the answers on a plate' which was meant very much tongue-in-cheek. I was in one of my frequent silly moods. I have to remind myself that not everyone shares my quirky (some would say warped) sense of humour.

I read your list of beliefs. I'd add one to that list - The only thing we learn from history is that noboody learns from history.

Like Anne, the very word 'belief' is an interesting one to ponder. Whenever we encounter a new idea or a new descritpion of reality or a new theory how DO we evaluate it? What is it inside us that says "What a load of rubbish" or "Yes, that seems about right" ... and in seeking out the 'origin' of the way (or ways) we view reality again one's mind can start to boggle.

I agree with your observation that opposing views can learn from each other though it tends to be rare that a debate stays amicable and civil as each side tends to 'defend' their picture by poking holes in the other's view and in many cases it gets personal. That's what attachment will do ... I have to constantly question myself whenever I encounter someone whose views I don't share and ask "Well, why am I so sure I'm closer to the truth than they are?" We do tend to divide the world up according to those who share our beliefs/views/experiences versus those who don't and then reserve our positive emotions for those in the 'Us' category.

History shows us this doesn't create harmony. :)

Anne, thanks for the links - especially the quiz

One question is as follows:

Regarding those who hold beliefs that are sharply different from mine, I think:

1. It’s amazing the sort of nonsense some people will believe
2. Since many people aquire their beliefs through upbringing or social circumstances, we should not judge
3. All beliefs are equally valid
4. They may be sincere but are mistaken or ill-informed

I would add: 5. All beliefs systems contain part of the truth but the truth exists beyond the power of mere words to describe or convey.

Anyone like to add another possible answer?

Speaking of letting go - click here

Namaste

ok carol. the next time i question the effectiveness of a spiritual method, and you respond by saying "well, the truth of the matter is there is this other such and such similar method have you never heard?", i'll have to remember that you are not implying that the method you just mentioned is effective.

my god carol are you serious? logic like that only fuels my skepticism.

Thank you two for the very kind words. You were missed also. I will have to get a laptop. I plan to go to Japan to live for a couple of years leaving this January. Will talk more about that later!

Hosh Badam (remember your breathing)

Anne, thanks for bringing the transcript to our attention. I've only read the introductory remarks but can see it's one I'll want to read aloud to Peggy (I'm forever reading stuff to her -- we got a copy of "The Holographic Universe" this weekend and it's on the top of the stack).

The idea that opposing views can participate in such an exchange in what looks like a civil setting, is very encouraging.

One of the beliefs that I failed to include in my list is that I believe we can use these opposing views to strengthen those things we only partially believe, and to unseat those beliefs we weren't really all that sure about to start with.

There's always something to learn from others' views.

he surely has! and Sharon, too.

Well, at least Frank can see that he's been missed, right?

but yours is so much better, Dave! :)

Hi, Carol! Looks like your post to Frank wins the race!

again, Dick, i never implied it was effective, one way or the other, simply said that aggression has been used by many and still do for teaching. therefore, while i can list many who use the technique i can not list whether it is effective or not.

Unless somebody else gets here first, I have the honor of welcoming you back, Franko! Good to hear your news and I hope you'll pass along my best wishes to Sharon. The two of you have been missed.

In your reading back you'll find most of the familiar names and many who aren't so familiar. You can judge for yourself which ones have become "regulars" and which have come in for brief visits. Lots to read!

Please visit as often as you can. Your words have always been beacons in the fog, and candles in the dark. May your further explorations bring you even more peace and happiness. You're sounding great!

hi Frank! :)

Hey guys. Glad to see some familiar names here still. Life is going good. I will have to read back through about a year or so of stuff!

I saw Sharon not so long ago. She came to a bit of a Sufi gathering. It was very good to see her again.

I am part of a Rumi conference held this Sunday in Calgary. I will be reading some of his poems such as "the Chickpea to the Cook" and "Love Dogs" (a couple of my favourites) as well as three other more blissful ones. I am looking forward to it.

Spent a week in the Rockies at a Sufi camp in Lake O'Hara. I think it just may be the most beautiful place on earth. Just pristine perfect mountain beauty. I will have to scan some photo's to share the scenery. Wonderful, wonderful stuff! Does the rest of the gang still hang out here? I will have to see if Hadi is around. He has quite a way with words. Great to see that Dave and Peg are still here. Sharon, are you still around?

Namaste' all and nice to be back.

franko

carol, the post where I ask you what you are now telling me i didn't ask, is this one:

On Sunday, October 22, 2000, Dick Skep ()@216.34.244.103 said:

carol, this LINK gives me grounds to be skeptical when it comes to your version of the truth. i would love to hear your many examples where negative reinforcement is effectively used to teach spiritual knowledge. you're not a catholic school teacher are you?

also, you would not ask a zen student this question because the zen stick is not used as negative reinforcement or beating or punishiment as you implied (see the LINK above), hence the point of my post which you seem to have missed.

Plus an interactive 'soul quiz' -

http://www.beliefnet.com/features/quiz/index.html

Just doing a bit of idle surfing and found this interesting debate - worth reading even if you don't agree with the basic conclusions each side draws:

http://grove.ufl.edu/~hasa/transcript.html

Just doing a bit of idle surfing and found this interesting debate - worth reading even if you don't agree with the basic conclusions each side draws:

http://grove.ufl.edu/~hasa/transcript.html

Dave R - Mea Culpa is right on the money. After 18 years of Catholic Mass 6 days a week, I knew how to say it but forgot how to spell it. Shows how rusty I am (thank goodness).

The saying in latin goes something like Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa and means something like "I am sorry for my sins", I am sorry for my sins", I am greatly sorry for my sins". If anyone remembers it better, chime in.

No wonder you didn't get what I was saying as I was trying to lighten the mood - this Forum (or at least Bob F) really needs a spell checker !!!!

"Some things are true whether you believe in them or not."
- City of Angels

Dave, thanks for your link - the one about scientology and Gurdjieff. I think once when I was a youngster I was walking past a scientology place in the city and they tried to 'recruit' me. I doubt if it would have worked - I ask too many questions. :) But that Hubbard guy can sure spin a yarn - the thetans coming to earth is a great piece of science fiction. Is scientology based on science fiction? :) Then again, who's to say what is 'fiction' ?

While we're listing our beliefs - it is a funny word to ponder though, this word 'belief' what does it mean really to believe something? I mean if there was incontrovertible proof then the word 'belief' wouldn't exist. With relation to Geoff's example of the tribe - I wonder if they would have a word equivalent to 'belief' or 'proof' because in such a community ALL would share the same world-view. I often wonder about past lives and where they were spent and in what 'belief system'. I can see beauty in most belief systems as long as they don't emphasise rigid or dogmatic stances. I read somewhere there is only one true religion: Love.

So much for articulating my beliefs. :)

Cheers

On Saturday, October 21, 2000, Dick Skep ()@216.34.244.49 said:

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Unless your teacher is Bob F. Then you'll just get it beat into you, like it or not.

Helluva teaching philosophy....not very effective I would imagine. Must be a case of bliss blindness.

actually, Dick, if you look at your post you didn't ask, you made a statement that you believed that beatings were not a very effective method of teaching. personally, i agree with you but feel in all honesty one would have to ask the Zen student, etc, to get an answer to its effectiveness. i also would love to ask the powers that be that question but since things are as they are, it probably, wouldn't get me very far. anyway, my basic point was simply to bring out that it is a recognized technique, whether we agree with it or not and i do apologize if you were offended by my assicons.

Bob, I have tried several search engines looking for "mea gopa" and have come up empty. One of them suggests "mea culpa" as an alternative and I would bet that that's what you were meaning.

But as luck would have it, I did locate this link which might strike you as oddly appropriate.

i take offense with your ass joke

you don't know me that well

A) carol, if you don't believe aggression is an effective way to teach, then what was the point of your post about the zen stick? was it not a response to my comments to bob f regarding his original post with the words "trying to beat it into them" where "it" refers to spiritual knowledge?

B) i asked you for examples where you felt negative reinforcement is effectively used to teach spiritual knowledge. if you cannot think of any, please see part A) of this post

Dave R (and Peggy by proxy) - Thanks for letting me off the hook before everyone ganged up on me. Sorry again, I was wrong from the start and should have apologized much earlier on.

Carol - Thanks for the wake up call, you are always the voice of reason

TO - You are right - this place has a way of correcting you very, very quickly

Namaste'

Apology accepted.

We're both quite able to "lighten up" (as a casual read back through forum archives might show). And we're not all that prim amd proper about language -- in general. However, there are times when it's hard to see the humor in the midst of what otherwise looks like harsh language.

Thanks to those who see the post as we did and spoke up about it. I think Carol's version is especially on target: you just don't know us well enough to be that personal.

And neither of us has any intention of beating up anybody. That's not cool -- and not possible in this environment. Being aware how words are our only tools here, and how those words can be mistaken for other words, makes me (and I think I can speak for Peggy) cautious about the words we choose. We're not always successful, and there are times when apologies are in order. When that's true, Carol's right. The apology is the correct course of action.

Thanks, Bob, for recognizing that and for the courtesy you've shown.

Peace.

Peggy & Dave R - If you re-read through my posts after my original blast at Peggy, hopefully you will see I was trying to lighten up (there were mea gopas, left handed compliments, jokes, etc.). However, you apparently take life a lot more seriously than I do.

Since my jokes seemed to really bothered you, I do sincerely apologize.

Namaste'

hi Dick, well, you have taken my words (again) and have assumed that i have stated that aggression is an effective way to teach. i never said that. i simply stated that it has been a technique used for as long as recorded time. you ask for examples and in your asking it makes me feel that you are blind for you do not have to look any further than our own govt or our own police organization to see that aggression is being used, right here and right now, in our own country to try to teach peace. i could however list many other examples but if you scroll down the last 100 posts you will find many other examples, in picture and written. personally, i'm not sure you are really reading the posts, tho. it seems that you are merely scanning and taking pot shots. correct me if i am wrong, ok? ;)

well, Bob, i find myself in a difficult position, here, and feel i really did nothing to cause it. yet, i do feel we manifest our own destinies. the only way i know to explain it is that we do and we don't. that there is sometimes something else going on that is above our control. in this case i find that two people that i like (for different reasons) are involved in a controversy. now i ask myself, do i remain silent or do i speak? which is better? i have, in other cases remained silent but in this case i feel i will speak. your remark to Peggy would have received a LOL from me, i feel i know you and feel that you were trying to be humorous. but also, in the same respect i feel that maybe you do not know Peggy well enough to make that remark to her. so, i have to agree with Cathy and Karen that an apology would be the correct thing to do. of course, it is your choice and i wish only well for you both.

Hi, I was so dissapointed to learn from workman publishing that they will not be printing a 2001 Deepak Chopra Page-A-Day calendar this year. Can you please help me out, is someone else publishing one for 2001 so that i can continue to enjoy this for the coming year. I really appreciate your feedback. Thanks and have an excellent day.

Cathy, I'll second your thought very sincerely. Some jokes don't come off as intended and it's better to find out why and say I'm sorry unless the offense was intended. Belittling others to enhance our own stature is not quite funny to me. I do take that seriously because I see it happen so frequently and observe the bad consequences.

To certain friends:

Okay, guys. Pay up! Did I call it right or what?

Predictable.

I saw Ram Dass one evening in 1972 (+- 1 year) at the Berekely High School auditorium. ( We are blessed whenever a master story teller finds the light, aren't we?) He rambled beautifully for a couple of hours, then someone in the audience asked him a question that I had been mulling myself. It was, "Where do we go from here? What is the technique, what is the path we should find?" He replied, "Don't worry, your very presence here shows that your fate is sealed -- you will find your way. "

Sometimes jokes or quips are funny to people and sometimes they are not...if someone is offended by a joke we tell, or something we say--unless that was the intention-- and even if we don't understand why they're offended or think they shouldn't be offended...it's nice to consider their reaction and apologize for how the joke affected them. No right, no wrong--just respecting someone else's feelings.

Well, that's my thought anyway :-) Not to say that I always follow my own advice...though I do try :-)

Cathy

Peggy - You have seen through me - you intimidate the h--- out of me.

Dave R - Laughable is the key word in your post - lighten up. Me thinks thouh doest protest to much but then again, maybe you have never tried it.

Are both of you going to come over and beat me up?

Click Here

Geoff, I wasn't asking you to hand me answers. If that's what you read into my comments, then I have given the wrong impression. A short time back, Peggy suggested we give some short summary of our beliefs so that those things would be "out there" in so many words so that others wouldn't have to guess or speculate on where we see each other coming from.

I have been pondering her question since then, trying to find those things I really do believe that would be of any interest here. Here are a few:

I believe that all people are complex organisms and that no person, regardless of how depraved or wicked, is incapable of doing benevolent and charitable things.

On the other hand, no person, regardless of how saintly and evolved, is incapable of doing harmful and cruel things.

There may be an Ultimate Reality, but human beings will never find it. If they do, what would be the point of another book?

Most people have a sense of humor, and very often the best way to a person's heart is through a good joke or funny story.

History doesn't repeat itself as much as historians repeat themselves.

No human being is holy; no human being is Satan incarnate.

If one is careful, one can learn from even the dullest of people.

It never hurts to talk about things, but it's rare that words are the only way to communicate.

We all take ourselves too seriously. In 100 years, what difference will what we're doing today have made in the grand scheme of things?

Tomorrow is another day; so was yesterday. What does that say about today?

You can lead a fish to the racetrack, but you can't make it jump the hurdles at the steeplechase.

It is far better to sit idle than to do nothing at all.

Bob, I would appreciate it very much if you could keep your sexual innuendos about my wife to yourself. They are not funny. They show you to be a very small person. Whatever hope you may have of demonstrating your prowess as a learned and enlightened person, you diminish yourself to the point of being laughable when all you can come up with are crude "below the belt" remarks.

I will not tolerate such comments from you.

Whatever it is about Peggy that annoys you, or whatever she says about your lack of sensitivity and compassion, she has not stooped to belittling you as a person. You could show your "enlightened" status better if you held yourself to some common decency.

Please be aware that comments about her sex life are comments about my sex life, and that is none of your business! Back off.

I was just reading the first chapter of "How to know God" here on the website and in this chapter Chopra is talking about miracles performed by God. There is one thing which puzzles me, if God gave men total freedom and responsibility for their own doings how could he interact in their lives by performing miracles from time to time and thus change the normal flow of things. Wouldn't he be contradicting his own words when he promised man total freedom?

Geoff, I just now saw the Dharma cartoon. ROFLMAOROTDDTSAITPOAOB!!!

Cathy, maybe we needed that post to be in bold type! ;-)

Chris, have you ever read Black Elk Speaks? References were made to it in Blue Highways and that's how I found it. There is something about it, about him, that reminds me of you.

Cool post, Chris! I've never met Goodall but she has always impressed me with her centeredness and ingenuity.

Thanks, Geoff. Sorry that I couldn't follow. I will reread.

Do you think that anyone here is asking for scientific or spiritual proof? (This is an honest question and I don't want it to sound catty.

Bob, your comment about my sexual preferences was not unexpected. Such crudeness has long been the last resort for men who are intimidated by strong women. You are a textbook case and very predictable. Until you begin to feel better about yourself, you will be unable to demonstrate the wisdom within.

Thanks for the Chief Seattle link Geoff. I've always thougth that some of the greatest spiritual masters in the world where the native americans.

Cathy, it wasn't all that wierd meeting Dr. Goodall. She seemed very much like an ordinary person. The way she looked at people, I mean REALLY looked deep into your eyes was different than most people I've met however. She expressed amazing courage, peace and centeredness just with her eyes.

Bob, I'm just now reading her book, "Reason For Hope A Spiritual Journey". She is telling the story about her introduction to Africa. It makes me want to go and visit myself someday.

Here is a thought that grabbed me tonight. What if "God/Spirit/whatever" isn't a noun but a verb. Maybe the mistake many of us make in trying to "find" God, is that you can't find God because God is no-place and no-thing. God can only be experienced by letting the experience happen to you. Just some rambling thoughts on a rainy Sunday night in Tucson.

Peace and light

Something funky going on with the commands--couldn't get rid of the all bold--previewed the post and saw what needed to be fixed, but the puter wouldn't let me! Guess what I was saying was really bold--he he--sad, I know ;-)

Cathy

Geoff

Made perfect sense to me! Your posts typically do, btw :-) Especially the part about really needing to "want" to be enlightened...it doesn't just happen from talking about it---I should know ;-) On that note, however, I think also that, for many at least...it's not a matter of being enlightened once and for all...though one might have a Unity experience or whatever that starts things off in a bigger way :-) I would think...never been there...but it makes sense that it's a continual thing. As Jesus said, "pray unceasingly" It's a matter of consciously witnessing our way of seeing the world, and concurrently exploring consciousness in meditation...as you wisely put it, it is something we each have to do--or not--for ourselves. I am finally starting to meditate--I had been sorta waiting to figure out what I "thought" about everything before following that group/person's advice...because they all differ a bit(though largely the same)...but I figured I'd be awhile getting to that point ;-) And that in fact, I might never get to that point...and that quite likely meditating would help me figure things out :-) Though I must say that even in this, I imagine there might be cultural influences depending on the style you pursued??? It's tough to get in the groove, but I will keep at it...

Chris How neat! I read that book--very good! Always "weird" to see famous people up close I think...I saw Kenny Rogers once when I was still working as a nurse in the ER--bizarre!

Peace all!

Cathy

Peggy, sorry for being so obscure :) - I was refering to the question you posted a few days ago from The Book of Questions by Gregory Stock: "If you could pass your whole life cared for in every way as you slumbered peacefully, entranced by wonderful dreams, would you do so?"

You should know by now my mind makes 'connections' and detours that some may find puzzling. Keep them guessing is my motto. :)

Just found an interesting page people might care to visit - click here

Little Dickens - "What-me worry ???" - Never. If I am hallucinating, please leave me alone in my bliss and do not burst my bubble.

Peggy - Great Firesign Theatre famous quote "We are all Bozos on this bus". Also, to bad you are inedible - still working on the missionary position I guess.

Chris V - What a great night it must have been. We went to one of her first camps in Kenya and she had worked wonders - brought tears to my eyes. What a great woman (but then again, I am an animal lover supreme).

Night all

If I want to know about tax evasion, immigration fraud, embezzlement or Rolls Royces, I'll ask ===> Osho

If I want to know about "knowing", I'll look elsewhere thank you very much.

Hey everyone! I'm excited to share that I met Jane Goodall this weekend. She gave a talk where I work. Quite a remarkable woman. She has a presence about her that is quite calming and peaceful. Click here if you want to see two pictures taken of my meeting her.

It is also nice to meet a world respected scientist that has a deeply spiritual dimension as well.

Geoff, what was the question?

Crown/Harmony Books

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